Looking for Options

[Dimitri, Varisian Explorer]

Hi everyone, I'm a druid.

I've got a question for more experienced adventurers than myself:

You see, I don't really like animals. At all. I chose to forego gaining a pet in favor of superior spellcasting ability. I skipped out on some of the usual, animal-loving druidyness to focus more on connecting with the very land itself (I'm a menhir savant).

But it won't be long before people start expecting me to actually shapeshift into an animal. Turn into an animal! Blech, no thanks. Is there something else I could learn to do instead? Anyone have ideas?

(Looking for an archetype that replaces the Wild Shape ability and doesn't conflict with the Menhir Savant archetype.)

[Squawk Featherbeak]

There's none. but Mask of Giants lets you wildshape to a giant instead. link

[Evil Lincoln]

I'm sorry, but I have to be unhelpful before everyone else: why are you playing a druid rather than a cleric or some other class that would let you do this exact thing?

[Jiggy]

Evil Lincoln wrote:

I'm sorry, but I have to be unhelpful before everyone else: why are you playing a druid rather than a cleric or some other class that would let you do this exact thing?

This character actually almost was a cleric. I eventually settled on a druid for the following reasons:

1. I've never played a druid before, but I've played a cleric.
2. The spell list was more appealing to me for the particular blend of offensive and healing magic that I wanted for this character.
3. The concept was supposed to be kind of a wanderer (walked all the way from Varisia to Andoren before sailing to Absalom to join the Society). A travel domain cleric would've worked okay, but when I saw the menhir savant's land-oriented flavor, I thought that would be a neat direction to take the "wanderer" idea. I.e., he wanders/explores in order to bond with the land itself.
4. Related to #3 and #1, the main thing that had kept me from having played a druid thus far was that I didn't really like the flavor that the core druid's class features portrayed (nothing against it; I just wouldn't enjoy roleplaying that persona). The menhir savant allows a pretty significant flavor shift.

Also note that the dislike for animals wasn't part of the original concept - I forewent the AC just for less bookkeeping. However, I like to leave my concepts a bit open-ended so they can be solidified by in-game experiences, and it was actually while playing the First Steps Intro Series (PFS scenarios) that the "dislikes animals" bit became part of his persona. So when I made the character, wild shape wasn't an issue (aside from a slight concern of more bookkeeping, but I figured it'd be less of a big deal by then). But now that I know that Dimitri doesn't like animals, turning into one just doesn't fit. I might simply choose never to use the ability, if there's not an archetype to trade it out.

Did I satisfactorily answer your question?

[Evil Lincoln]

Yes.

I still think you should have made a cleric, but that is unsurprising as cleric is my favorite class, and one of the most flexible concept classes in the game.

Good luck (sincerely!) with that square peg, round hole thing, you crazy jiggyperson.

[Jiggy]

Evil Lincoln wrote:

[The cleric is] one of the most flexible concept classes in the game.

Can't argue with that. :)

Quote:

Good luck (sincerely!) with that square peg, round hole thing, you crazy jiggyperson.

Thanks. I do seem to have a penchant for making slightly-off characters.

My fighter is usually the highest-INT character at the table (unless there happens to be a wizard or magus).

My rogue has over 10HP/level, low CHA, and fights sword-and-board style.

My druid, as you've seen, doesn't like animals.

And I'm currently working on a character who likely won't take a second level of a given class until he reaches 4-5 HD.

I guess I like to break the mold. ;)

[Jiggy]

Well, if there aren't any options for replacing Wild Shape, then let's assume for the moment that the character simply won't use the ability.

This means he'll be spending his time either casting or chopping people up with a scimitar. So any tips for an "all human, all the time" druid?

[thegreenteagamer]

Jiggy wrote:

Well, if there aren't any options for replacing Wild Shape, then let's assume for the moment that the character simply won't use the ability.

This means he'll be spending his time either casting or chopping people up with a scimitar. So any tips for an "all human, all the time" druid?

Doesnt one of the archetypes do giant shape at the expense of a delayef wild shape? Mountain druid maybe?

At higher levels there's plant and elemental shapes.

Wild feats 3.5 would be your prime solution...if they were allowed.

[Jiggy]

thegreenteagamer wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Well, if there aren't any options for replacing Wild Shape, then let's assume for the moment that the character simply won't use the ability.

This means he'll be spending his time either casting or chopping people up with a scimitar. So any tips for an "all human, all the time" druid?

Doesnt one of the archetypes do giant shape at the expense of a delayef wild shape? Mountain druid maybe?

Alas, that archetype can't stack with Menhir Savant.

[Curnach Daveck]

Urban druid, like my character Curnach here. Spontaneous domain casting and delayed wild shape sounds like what your after. Alter Self at will is pretty handy and losing the ability to spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally fits your concept.

[brreitz]

Alternately, perhaps your character could simply be REALLY ANNOYED when ever he has to wild shape.

"FINE, I'll turn into a BIRD. WHATEVER. TWEET."

That could be amusing.

[thegreenteagamer]

Wild feats, then. If you have to stay from 3.5, find a way to channel energy and do Holy Vindicator...full BAB and casting is fun! Horizon Walker seems to fit the theme if not the optimization.

[Jiggy]

brreitz wrote:

Alternately, perhaps your character could simply be REALLY ANNOYED when ever he has to wild shape.

"FINE, I'll turn into a BIRD. WHATEVER. TWEET."

That could be amusing.

Best suggestion so far. :)

[Nickademus42]

I thought I saw something for this somewhere.... I also dislike the animal part of Druid. I am planning to get Tempest Druid and just throw lightning. Let me look around and get back to you.

[Michael Loy]

Hows about elemental forms? There's only a 2-level space in there where animals are your only options.

Eventually there's plant forms, too, but they're pretty uniformly terrible.

[Nickademus42]

I agree with Michael. Your archetype is pretty much boxing you in for options. Best I could do was a feat that allows you to become celestial or fiendish animals. Just come up with a roleplay reason why you can't become an animal and let the other players deal with it.

[Jiggy]

Michael Loy wrote:

Hows about elemental forms? There's only a 2-level space in there where animals are your only options.

I overlooked that! Thanks. :)

Nickademus42 wrote:

Just come up with a roleplay reason why you can't become an animal and let the other players deal with it.

And in the meantime, what feats and spells do you suppose I should focus on? I haven't checked out a druid guide, but I suspect there's a lot of emphasis on being effective while wildshaped.

[Michael Loy]

It's not necessary to be a good wild shaper. In fact, it's difficult to hit both spellcasting and combat shaping equally well ... it sounds like you're already focusing on casting, so just stick with that.

Do eventually pick up Natural Spell, though. Once you hit 6th level, you can start using elemental wild shapes for utility and tactical advantage. Air form lets you fly, earth form lets you walk through stone walls, that kind of thing. Very handy, even if you aren't wading into melee. You can expect something like a +4 AC bonus from any of those wild shapes, too, which is nice.

Note that you can also keep a few buffs on the back burner to drop if you really must wade into combat: buff, apply wild shape, and move in. You'll be an adequate fighter, even if you can't compete with a wild shape specialist.

[Jiggy]

Michael Loy wrote:

Note that you can also keep a few buffs on the back burner to drop if you really must wade into combat

Actually, this character is built to be melee-competent. Not gonna out-DPR a fighter or barbarian, but being in melee isn't an "uh-oh" situation.

[Michael Loy]

Ohhhh. Well. Then, yeah, you're kinda screwing yourself. The animal forms are by far the best for straight melee. Pounce, grab, and etc, plus all the natural attacks is just too good.

Elementals tend to have good stats boosts, but you'll be stuck with just one slam attack (two at higher levels) and not really that much in the way of special stuff. Fire elementals have Burn, but I think that's about it. Air form gives you Whirlwind, but that's more for control than melee.

And the plant forms, again, are fairly crappy, though you might look at the mandragora in Bestiary 2 ... otherwise, wild shape generally doesn't permit you to get any of the interesting plant abilities that would make plant wild shape useful. Though if you specialize in a lockdown build, I think there are one or two plants with obscenely long reach, so that's something.

You might give the [polymorph] spells a hard look. Druids get a lot of good ones, but they're of limited use because they don't stack with wild shape. Aspect of the Bear and so on can give you a nice edge, if you're avoiding wild shape.

[Jiggy]

Michael Loy wrote:

Elementals tend to have good stats boosts, but you'll be stuck with just one slam attack (two at higher levels) and not really that much in the way of special stuff.

Hm... So I don't get to keep my scimitar when I do an elemental wild shape, despite them being roughly humanoid?

I guess I need to start researching what exactly does and does not happen when I wild shape into an elemental...

[Michael Loy]

No, elementals are one of the ones where you absorb all your gear, unfortunately. Nothing keeps you from just dropping your scimitar, wild shaping, then picking it up again, though you'll start running into size mismatches that way.

Is there a weapon ability that lets you adjust your weapon's size? I can't recall. Or if you can arrange to summon an appropriately-sized weapon to your hand after the wild shape. Or get a sword-bearer hireling, I suppose.

[Michael Loy]

Also, that giant mask, mentioned above, might be just the thing. The lesser version isn't too great, but at least you'd retain all your gear ... it's like an hours-duration enlarge person, which is hard to argue with. The greater mask would be pretty hot, but 13th caster level means it's a bit out of your reach for now.

[Jiggy]

Michael Loy wrote:

No, elementals are one of the ones where you absorb all your gear, unfortunately. Nothing keeps you from just dropping your scimitar, wild shaping, then picking it up again, though you'll start running into size mismatches that way.

Well, the elemental shaping starts at small, so it'd be easy enough to carry a small scimitar, and just draw-and-drop before shaping. On the other hand, that'd be a d4 instead of the small elemental's d6 slam...

Ooooh, but I could use Natural Spell to cast flame blade after wildshaping...

Man, gonna have to really work on this one...

[Jiggy]

Michael Loy wrote:

13th caster level means it's a bit out of your reach for now.

Heh, being a PFS character, he won't go beyond level 12.