Filthy rich gunslinger

[carn]

I just realized, that the gunsmithing feat allows to create gun powder and bullets at 1/10 th the listed price with an amount of 1000 GP per workday. Since all loot can always be sold at half listed price, every char with gunsmithing, so all level 1 gunslingers as well, can create in one work day for 1000 GP items that sell for 5000 gp.

Think thats ok for level 1.

Even if one argues no one needs all that gun powder and bullets because guns are crappy weapons, the gunsmith can create adamantine bullets for 6.1 GP the piece. 60 weigh 1 pound and as platinum is worth 500 GP per pound 1 pound of adamantine should fetch more than the 366 GP the gunsmith spends to create 60 adamantine bullets.

Any rules stopping the gunsmith or has theGM got to do this?

[kyrt-ryder]

Does it say a Gunsmith can do the 1,000 GP workdays? Even if they're priced like Magic Items they're still mundane.

[carn]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Does it say a Gunsmith can do the 1,000 GP workdays? Even if they're priced like Magic Items they're still mundane.

"Crafting Ammunition: You can craft bullets, pellets, and black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can craft alchemical cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the cartridge. At your GM’s discretion, you can craft metal cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the cost of the cartridge. Crafting bullets, black powder, or cartridges takes 1 day of work for every 1,000 gp of ammunition (minimum 1 day)."

They cannot do it with cartridges, because they are created at half price. But bullets, pellets and black powder are created at 10% of price.

But actually thats 1000 GP list price per day of work i think, so poor gunsmiths only create per day of work items worth selling 500 GP for spending 100 GP. Still ok.

And adamantine bullets are listed as bullets for 61 GP per bullet, so the 10% rule applies. And 30 normal bullets weigh half a pound.

[Talonhawke]

carn wrote:

Any rules stopping the gunsmith or has theGM got to do this?

your GM will probably ban the class outright when you try this thus keeping yuou and anyone else form ever playing one.

[Malukks]

Talonhawke wrote:

carn wrote:

Any rules stopping the gunsmith or has theGM got to do this?

your GM will probably ban the class outright when you try this thus keeping yuou and anyone else form ever playing one.

But it's the feat Gunsmithing that allows crafting ammo at 10% base price. Anyone can take that. Gunslingers just start with the feat

[Talonhawke]

And the player is the one choosing to abuse it. Also outside of taking a archetype that gives you gunsmithing why would you take it.

[carn]

Talonhawke wrote:

And the player is the one choosing to abuse it. Also outside of taking a archetype that gives you gunsmithing why would you take it.

As a GM i would probably decide that cheap ammunition a gunsmith creates only works with guns he had somehow got his hands on in the last couple of days, otherwise the gun misses just the right clink in the right place so the cheap ammunition and powder of this gunsmith functions. ( It is anyway unrealistic to cast 1000 bullets per day with just a portabl work kit, so more unrealism does not hurt.)

So either the player agrees not to abusing the feat or he has to keep track of personally made ammunition and powder and bought/looted seperately. Becaue if its limited to which guns it can be used, the gunsmith can at msot sell the staff to a small force, for which he also takes care of the guns.

I was just surprised to find that in the rules, because it is rather obvious that creating stuff at 10% price could be a problem.

[Cheapy]

Just don't allow them to sell it.

"But why can't I sell it?!?" they will protest.

"Magic."

[karkon]

Where do you get that 60 adamantine bullets weight 1 pound? I ask because in the equipment entry it has a dash which means negligble weight. So 1000 might weigh 1 pound.

[carn]

karkon wrote:

Where do you get that 60 adamantine bullets weight 1 pound? I ask because in the equipment entry it has a dash which means negligble weight. So 1000 might weigh 1 pound.

30 normal bullets weigh half a pound. As far as i remember adamantine weapons why the same as standard. Therefore 60 adamantine bullets weigh 1 pound.

[karkon]

Also, I am going to apply basic economics rules to this. Those prices assume that guns are rare so all pricing is very high. That means demand is low and sales will be difficult.

If you are playing where guns are more common the following rules from the Firearms section apply:
Commonplace Guns: While still expensive and tricky to wield, early firearms are readily available. Instead of requiring the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, all firearms are martial weapons. Early firearms and their ammunition cost 25% of the amounts listed in this book, but advanced firearms and their ammunition are still rare and cost the full price to purchase or craft.

Guns Everywhere: Guns are commonplace. Early firearms are seen as antiques, and advanced firearms are widespread. Firearms are simple weapons, and early firearms, advanced guns, and their ammunition are bought or crafted for 10% of the cost listed in this chapter. The gunslinger loses the gunsmith class feature and instead gains the gun training class feature at 1st level.

[karkon]

carn wrote:

Snip

Even if one argues no one needs all that gun powder and bullets because guns are crappy weapons, the gunsmith can create adamantine bullets for 6.1 GP the piece. 60 weigh 1 pound and as platinum is worth 500 GP per pound 1 pound of adamantine should fetch more than the 366 GP the gunsmith spends to create 60 adamantine bullets.

Also where do you get that adamantine is worth 500gp/pound?

Looking at the equipment section the addition of adamantine does not change the weight of an item at all while Mithril does. Also Mithril is listed as costing 500gp/pound to use as a material not adamantine.

Under the special materials section it says this: Weapons and armor can be crafted using materials that possess innate special properties. If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material. However, you can build a double weapon with each head made of a different special material.

The bolded part shows that an item does not need to be entirely made of the special material to gain the benefits of that material. Therefore I submit that things made of adamantine or mithril in fact only use small amounts of the special material as that is all that is needed to gain the benefits.

That means your adamantine bullets are not worth what you think they are worth.

[Dumb Paladin]

Karkon has a good point, and the logic can be extended:

If guns are rare in your world, why would anyone want to buy gunpowder!? What use would it be to people who may not even know what it is? Good luck finding a buyer who will pay you 50% for an item that's worthless to him.

If guns are common in your world ... then 50 other gunslingers have probably beat you to this "trick", and the market for selling bullets & powder will likely be depressed. You'd be lucky to get your 10% back. You certainly won't get 50%.

[Helaman]

Or just say to the player, "This is made to help you as no other class has to pay so much per attack. Its a balance of sorts. Abuse it at your own risk".