Missing just 1 little detail though...much of the damage from RAGELANCEPOUNCE comes from holding the weapon with 2 hands-1.5 str bonus, +6 extra damage from power attack (which is then multiplied by charging), all of that is quite significant, and which you lose by holding two lances 1-handed. Sure you recover some of it from the second lance, but it will not be doubled. Not even close to 1.5 times I suspect.
But in the type of RAW logic which AM BARBARIAN and the rest of the family is based on, there isn't any problem.
The Lance is a 2-handed weapon. 2HW grants 1½ strength bonus to damage, and PA deals +50%.
When you are mounted, you can wield it with one hand. That specific rule does not state that it becomes a one-handed weapon.
Missing just 1 little detail though...much of the damage from RAGELANCEPOUNCE comes from holding the weapon with 2 hands-1.5 str bonus, +6 extra damage from power attack (which is then multiplied by charging), all of that is quite significant, and which you lose by holding two lances 1-handed. Sure you recover some of it from the second lance, but it will not be doubled. Not even close to 1.5 times I suspect.But in the type of RAW logic which AM BARBARIAN and the rest of the family is based on, there isn't any problem.
The Lance is a 2-handed weapon. 2HW grants 1½ strength bonus to damage, and PA deals +50%.
When you are mounted, you can wield it with one hand. That specific rule does not state that it becomes a one-handed weapon.
Hmm...this may need to go to FAQ...honestly I'm a little sceptical.
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Missing just 1 little detail though...much of the damage from RAGELANCEPOUNCE comes from holding the weapon with 2 hands-1.5 str bonus, +6 extra damage from power attack (which is then multiplied by charging), all of that is quite significant, and which you lose by holding two lances 1-handed. Sure you recover some of it from the second lance, but it will not be doubled. Not even close to 1.5 times I suspect.But in the type of RAW logic which AM BARBARIAN and the rest of the family is based on, there isn't any problem.
The Lance is a 2-handed weapon. 2HW grants 1½ strength bonus to damage, and PA deals +50%.
When you are mounted, you can wield it with one hand. That specific rule does not state that it becomes a one-handed weapon.
Using that logic a Long Sword wielded with two hands doesn't get the 1.5x STR modifier as it is still a one handed weapon.
?
That's also like saying "well I don't care if exotic weapon proficency bastard sword lets you wield it one handed, it's still a 2 handed weapon".
Obviously it's intended to let you have a shield and a lance, but by extension that means you can dual wield it.
Using that logic a Long Sword wielded with two hands doesn't get the 1.5x STR modifier as it is still a one handed weapon.?
No.
That is a different situation.
A Long sword wielded in two hands recieve 1½ str bonus, because one-handed weapons deal 1½ str bonus when wielded in two hands. As such, yes it is still a one handed weapon.
That's also like saying "well I don't care if exotic weapon proficency bastard sword lets you wield it one handed, it's still a 2 handed weapon".
Actually the bastard sword works the other way around.
It is a one handed weapon. But you can wield it as a two-hander without the required feat.
I don't really defend the notion for any kind of actual use.
As I see the intended use of the lance when riding, is using the statistics of a lance wielded in two hands, but allowing the use of a shield (or directing you mount with a hand).
Double lancing surely does not seem to be the idea.
But then again, as I see, the mounted charge bonus of the lance, doesn't really seem to be intended to use with full attack actions.
AM ELDRITCH KNIGHT has a build here
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/aMBARBARIANBuild&page=20#981
that seems to hit 211.5 damage per round average, using some insane strength bonuses. Less sustainable than AM BARBARIAN, since it uses 2 buff spells and a dimension door each round, but he can also swap to a +5 lance for some still-quite-decent damage for lesser encounters.
Best part is, his base form seems a gnome (I'm guessing this is more for hilarity than some salient optimisation decision). XD
The power attack thing is NOT HOW IT WORKS AT ALL.
But you still pick up extra damage when wielding it one handed with Spirited Charge, since 1.5 * 3 = 4.5...
While 1 * 3 * 2 = 6.
So if 2handed you deal 3d8+45, with the same two hands on two lances you deal 6d8+60, not including weapon modifiers. You lose a little on the last iterative but the rest makes up for it, not to mention the odds of more criticals.
Though, why doesn't the Alchemist have vestigial arm so he can wield THREE lances? This is clearly superior to all other options.
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Been thinking on making AM SOHEI who can flurry with a lance just need to get him pounce somehow that doesn't involve multiclassing since at lvl 20 AM SOHEI beats the infamous Diviner on Init.
Well I figured this AM PARTY of pouncers would like a +5 to hit and AC so I'm doing up a cleric of gorum with the heroism and rage subdomains, Orc eldritch heritage BLOODLINE. Need to get pounce somehow, but bigger size is easy and with spells for buffs/saves he should be able to hang with this group. Probably gonna gtr planar ally a cool mount.
The power attack thing is NOT HOW IT WORKS AT ALL.
But you still pick up extra damage when wielding it one handed with Spirited Charge, since 1.5 * 3 = 4.5...
While 1 * 3 * 2 = 6.
So if 2handed you deal 3d8+45, with the same two hands on two lances you deal 6d8+60, not including weapon modifiers. You lose a little on the last iterative but the rest makes up for it, not to mention the odds of more criticals.
Though, why doesn't the Alchemist have vestigial arm so he can wield THREE lances? This is clearly superior to all other options.
The alchemist could get four arms so he could dual wield lances with two hands each and get 1.5 STR bonus on each. XP
The alchemist could get four arms so he could dual wield lances with two hands each and get 1.5 STR bonus on each. XPThe power attack thing is NOT HOW IT WORKS AT ALL.
But you still pick up extra damage when wielding it one handed with Spirited Charge, since 1.5 * 3 = 4.5...
While 1 * 3 * 2 = 6.
So if 2handed you deal 3d8+45, with the same two hands on two lances you deal 6d8+60, not including weapon modifiers. You lose a little on the last iterative but the rest makes up for it, not to mention the odds of more criticals.
Though, why doesn't the Alchemist have vestigial arm so he can wield THREE lances? This is clearly superior to all other options.
Or he could Four-Weapon-Fighting with four lances for even MORE damage.
(Two lances always deals more damage than one twohanded lance. If you can TWF lances, you might as well.)
AM NINJA NEED NOT WORRY ABOUT CASTY, AM NINJA AM UNDETECTABLE, AM NINJA KILL CASTY IN CASTY'S SLEEP.
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AM NINJA NEED NOT WORRY ABOUT CASTY, AM NINJA AM UNDETECTABLE, AM NINJA KILL CASTY IN CASTY'S SLEEP.
I'm sorry sir but you are a LOUSY ninja.
AM NINJA NEED NOT WORRY ABOUT CASTY, AM NINJA AM UNDETECTABLE, AM NINJA KILL CASTY IN CASTY'S SLEEP.I'm sorry sir but you are a LOUSY ninja.
AM NINJA AM EXCELLENT NINJA BECAUSE AM NINJA PRETEND AM NINJA AM LOUSY, NO ONE EXPECT AM NINJA TRUE POWER BECAUSE THEY THINK AM NINJA LOUSY.
AM NINJA AM EXCELLENT NINJA BECAUSE AM NINJA PRETEND AM NINJA AM LOUSY, NO ONE EXPECT AM NINJA TRUE POWER BECAUSE THEY THINK AM NINJA LOUSY.AM NINJA NEED NOT WORRY ABOUT CASTY, AM NINJA AM UNDETECTABLE, AM NINJA KILL CASTY IN CASTY'S SLEEP.I'm sorry sir but you are a LOUSY ninja.
What the power of letting everyone know you're there BY BEING AS LOUD AS POSSIBLE!
What the power of letting everyone know you're there BY BEING AS LOUD AS POSSIBLE!AM NINJA AM EXCELLENT NINJA BECAUSE AM NINJA PRETEND AM NINJA AM LOUSY, NO ONE EXPECT AM NINJA TRUE POWER BECAUSE THEY THINK AM NINJA LOUSY.AM NINJA NEED NOT WORRY ABOUT CASTY, AM NINJA AM UNDETECTABLE, AM NINJA KILL CASTY IN CASTY'S SLEEP.I'm sorry sir but you are a LOUSY ninja.
THAT AM NOT ME, THAT AM MY DOPPLEGANGER FAR AWAY. AM KEEP SEVERAL.
THAT AM NOT ME, THAT AM MY DOPPLEGANGER FAR AWAY. AM KEEP SEVERAL.What the power of letting everyone know you're there BY BEING AS LOUD AS POSSIBLE!AM NINJA AM EXCELLENT NINJA BECAUSE AM NINJA PRETEND AM NINJA AM LOUSY, NO ONE EXPECT AM NINJA TRUE POWER BECAUSE THEY THINK AM NINJA LOUSY.AM NINJA NEED NOT WORRY ABOUT CASTY, AM NINJA AM UNDETECTABLE, AM NINJA KILL CASTY IN CASTY'S SLEEP.I'm sorry sir but you are a LOUSY ninja.
And there you go again giving away all your "secrets"
The only post a real ninja makes is this: ...
Now remove the dots.
So now people are like "Oh god what happened to that casty! He just turned into a fountain of gore and corgis! MAybe it was that wretched barbarian we keep hearing about!"
And the standing right behind them says nothing.
Nothing.
AM NEVER TELL HOW MANY DOPPLEGANGERS AM HAVE, AM HAVE INFINITE. NOBODY AM ABLE TO FEND OFF INFINITE DOPPLEGANGERS.
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AM NEVER TELL HOW MANY DOPPLEGANGERS AM HAVE, AM HAVE INFINITE.
*Whacks with newspaper* SSSSSSHHH!!! Or I'll use the spray bottle!
*Takes 0 damage and hides invisibly*
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*Takes 0 damage and hides invisibly*
Better.
Magic Jar/Shapechange into a Marilith and get 6 base attacks?
Note that we hit 9000 dmg if we add Valorous to the Lances.
It's okay that you don't get 1.5 dmg on every lance. The big thing is power attack for the extra damage, and just getting more and more attacks/smites/whatever.
==Aelryinth
Don't forget to add in Bard buffs...no way in hell a group would be laying down this much death without someone following them around singing their praises.
Heck, based on the AM BARBARIAN thread one of them might be riding a Bard, lol.
you mean a bird. it's really a synthesist.
Heck, based on the AM BARBARIAN thread one of them might be riding a Bard, lol.
Long as he knows the right songs...good times.
*Actually it could be a Bard who dips into Cavalier and rides AMY, lol.
Don't forget to add in Bard buffs...no way in hell a group would be laying down this much death without someone following them around singing their praises.
Heck, based on the AM BARBARIAN thread one of them might be riding a Bard, lol.
BUFFS AM WHAT AM HOLY VINDICATOR IS FOR. AM HAVE BETTER SPELLS FROM AM GOD AND AM KICK MORE BUTT THAN AM BARD!!!! AM BARD TALK TOO MUCH. AM HOLY VINDICATOR JUST CHANNEL AWESOME AND PUNCH DEATH OUT OF ALLIES WHO AM DEAD!!!
The alchemist could get four arms so he could dual wield lances with two hands each and get 1.5 STR bonus on each. XPThe power attack thing is NOT HOW IT WORKS AT ALL.
But you still pick up extra damage when wielding it one handed with Spirited Charge, since 1.5 * 3 = 4.5...
While 1 * 3 * 2 = 6.
So if 2handed you deal 3d8+45, with the same two hands on two lances you deal 6d8+60, not including weapon modifiers. You lose a little on the last iterative but the rest makes up for it, not to mention the odds of more criticals.
Though, why doesn't the Alchemist have vestigial arm so he can wield THREE lances? This is clearly superior to all other options.
Or he could Four-Weapon-Fighting with four lances for even MORE damage.
(Two lances always deals more damage than one twohanded lance. If you can TWF lances, you might as well.)
Unfortunately adding extra limbs does not provide extra attacks. Though there is nothing in there about not using them to TWF with 2 two-handers. (SO MANY TWOS!)
Unfortunately adding extra limbs does not provide extra attacks. Though there is nothing in there about not using them to TWF with 2 two-handers. (SO MANY TWOS!)
Right, but a lance can become a 1-handed weapon while mounted.
Unfortunately adding extra limbs does not provide extra attacks. Though there is nothing in there about not using them to TWF with 2 two-handers. (SO MANY TWOS!)Right, but a lance can become a 1-handed weapon while mounted.
I was referring to this:
The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb).
You don't gain extra attacks with the arm so having an extra lance does not allow four-weapon-fighting as it were. You can TWF with four weapons, but your amount of attacks does not go up. What you can do with the vestigial arm is wield two lances in two hands each so that you gain bonus damage on both lances.
True, but those multiple lances also serve a purpose: you can have different lances to overcome different DR types.
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Been thinking on making AM SOHEI who can flurry with a lance just need to get him pounce somehow that doesn't involve multiclassing since at lvl 20 AM SOHEI beats the infamous Diviner on Init.
...well, he can tie the diviner. Both get a 30, then it's down to feats, traits, and dex score. And the diviner is less MAD than the sohei.
And both would get to go on the surprise round, where flurry and pounce wouldn't help. Still, as a get-the-jump-on-you martial class, he can't be beat.
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You're wrong Deathspot. Pounce (and Flurry if you have both) DO help during a surprise round. It's called a partial charge. Move up to your movement and make a charge attack. Pounce turns that into a full attack after your movement. If you've been doing otherwise you have been shortchanging your pouncing animal enemies who normally Pounce from ambush in the surprise round.Been thinking on making AM SOHEI who can flurry with a lance just need to get him pounce somehow that doesn't involve multiclassing since at lvl 20 AM SOHEI beats the infamous Diviner on Init....well, he can tie the diviner. Both get a 30, then it's down to feats, traits, and dex score. And the diviner is less MAD than the sohei.
And both would get to go on the surprise round, where flurry and pounce wouldn't help. Still, as a get-the-jump-on-you martial class, he can't be beat.
Nope. You can only take a standard action in the surprise round. There's no way you can partial charge and then get pounce or flurry, both of which are full-round actions.
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Wrong. A partial charge is a standard action that can be taken any time you can only take a standard action. Pounce simply modifies the charge attack.Nope. You can only take a standard action in the surprise round. There's no way you can partial charge and then get pounce or flurry, both of which are full-round actions.You're wrong Deathspot. Pounce (and Flurry if you have both) DO help during a surprise round. It's called a partial charge. Move up to your movement and make a charge attack. Pounce turns that into a full attack after your movement. If you've been doing otherwise you have been shortchanging your pouncing animal enemies who normally Pounce from ambush in the surprise round.Been thinking on making AM SOHEI who can flurry with a lance just need to get him pounce somehow that doesn't involve multiclassing since at lvl 20 AM SOHEI beats the infamous Diviner on Init....well, he can tie the diviner. Both get a 30, then it's down to feats, traits, and dex score. And the diviner is less MAD than the sohei.
And both would get to go on the surprise round, where flurry and pounce wouldn't help. Still, as a get-the-jump-on-you martial class, he can't be beat.
Ah, I think I see the issue. You're conflating 'partial charge,' which is a standard action, with 'charge,' which is a full-round action. They're not the same thing, and you can only pounce or flurry after a full-round charge.
Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a ChargeYou must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
I don't see that in here...
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Pounce in the PRD says absolutely nothing about being forfeit on partial charges.
And again, think about it. Pounce is made for ambusher creatures. Big cats for example. Are you really telling me a Lion or Tiger or Cheetah can't use their primary ability when they ambush like they are supposed to?
Partial Charge is not the same thing as Charge. A partial charge is a standard action. There's no way you can take a full attack on a standard action. And the game is not real life. Using real-life examples to prove an in-game point is...suboptimal.
But there's nothing in anything on the PRD that agrees with your point...
The only things that are changed are that you move only up to your speed, and can't draw a weapon without the Quick draw feat.
It doesn't say no other effects would activate.
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But there's nothing in anything on the PRD that agrees with your point...
The only things that are changed are that you move only up to your speed, and can't draw a weapon without the Quick draw feat.
It doesn't say no other effects would activate.
The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round.
If you're restricted to a standard or move action, you can't full-attack. Partial charge is a special action that is allowed in this case. Nothing in the rules allows a full-round action if you're restricted to a standard or move action.
Yes, but consider the description of Charge once more.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Nowhere in here does it say that effects related to charging do not activate.
Now we check pounce...
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Note that the neither rules text differentiates between a charge made as a standard action as being any different for the purpose of this ability. Thus, we must conclude that it does work.
You are welcome to rule differently, but this is not a rule supported by the RAW.
Also, Mobile fighters can totally full-attack with a standard action, so we know it can be done.
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Yes, but consider the description of Charge once more.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.Nowhere in here does it say that effects related to charging do not activate.
Now we check pounce...
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).Note that the neither rules text differentiates between a charge made as a standard action as being any different for the purpose of this ability. Thus, we must conclude that it does work.
You are welcome to rule differently, but this is not a rule supported by the RAW.
Also, Mobile fighters can totally full-attack with a standard action, so we know it can be done.
Yes...as a capstone ability. Are you suggesting that anyone taking pounce be granted a capstone ability?
EDIT: Also, you're fogetting that Pathfinder is a permissive ruleset. The mobile fighter is a specific exception to the action economy rule in this case. You simply cannot take a full-round action when you're restricted to a standard action.
There is a great difference between 'move your speed however you want and full attack' and 'charge and full attack.'
The added flexibility is easily worth the additional levels between when you can hit pounce and when you can hit the Mobile Fighter ability, particularly when the movement bonus from Haste and the like are brought into the equation, even if we adjust for the fact that charging can be done as a standard action during a surprise round.
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There is a great difference between 'move your speed however you want and full attack' and 'charge and full attack.'
The added flexibility is easily worth the additional levels between when you can hit pounce and when you can hit the Mobile Fighter ability, particularly when the movement bonus from Haste and the like are brought into the equation, even if we adjust for the fact that charging can be done as a standard action during a surprise round.
You're still dancing away from the fact that you cannot take a full-round action if you're restricted to a standard action. Partial charge is a specific exception to this, just as pounce is a specific exception to the rule that you cannot full-attack after a charge - which is a full-round action.
Unless it's not.
You're dancing away from the fact that there is no 'partial charge' action in the RAW, there is only the fact that you can charge when you are limited to a standard action.
If you want to rule it your way it is fine at your table, but that's not RAW, bro.
Trinam's right here. THe rules do not distinguish between a "full charge" or a "partial charge". There is only a "charge", which you can still perform if you only have a standard action, but your movement is limited in that case. But whether you do it as a standard or full action, in both instances it is simply called 'charge'.
Or in Trinam's case, RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
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Unless it's not.
You're dancing away from the fact that there is no 'partial charge' action in the RAW, there is only the fact that you can charge when you are limited to a standard action.
If you want to rule it your way it is fine at your table, but that's not RAW, bro.
...yeah, you're right that 'partial charge' doesn't appear in the RAW (although it does appear in the FAQ). This doesn't change my point: you cannot take a full-round action if you're limited to a standard action. The mobile fighter capstone ability is an exception to this, and there may others, but pounce isn't one of them.
...yeah, you're right that 'partial charge' doesn't appear in the RAW (although it does appear in the FAQ). This doesn't change my point: you cannot take a full-round action if you're limited to a standard action. The mobile fighter capstone ability is an exception to this, and there may others, but pounce isn't one of them.Unless it's not.
You're dancing away from the fact that there is no 'partial charge' action in the RAW, there is only the fact that you can charge when you are limited to a standard action.
If you want to rule it your way it is fine at your table, but that's not RAW, bro.
You're right in that you can't take a full-round action as a standard action. The problem you're running into here is that pounce is not an action, it is an effect added onto a charge.
And there is no 'partial charge,' there is only a charge.
Ergo, pounce (the added effect onto a charge) works while charging whether or not you are limited to a standard action or a full-round.
You can rule it your way, and I get where you're coming from, but that's not RAW.