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I really, really like the notion of the MoMS - I love the possibilities afforded by combining style feats, and I love the idea of freeing up the monk from leaning on full attacks. But I've been wondering, is the MoMS worth giving up FoB?
I suppose you can think of this from two perspectives: defensively and offensively. I think for the former there's no question that the MoMS has the leg up: being able to have Crane Style and Crane Wing at level 1, for instance, is in itself uber-wicked. But what about offensively? Do the AoO-provoking feats + the ability of accelerating Dragon Style offer a viable alternative to flurry? I'd certainly like to think they could, but again, I'm not so sure.
Thoughts?
Tiger dragon and panther all together give you a good means of jumping around taking two attacks with a charge and taking preemptive AoO's on anyone that takes one on you for moving. Combined later with crane style and snake and you can really set up the free attacks on other peoples turns.
Snapping turtle with crane and snake works well if you want a grappler.
Also master of many forms with free hand fighter levels works as a wonderful multi-class lead in for duelist.
When UC first came out, I was really keen on the idea of a MoMS that started with Panther and Snake Styles and went from there - you could have 3 style feats at level 2, and could potentially get a ton of AoOs. Upon my reflection, my main reservation has been that if enemies stop AoOing, or even attacking you altogether, the main function of your build (additional attacks) has been completely negated. I suppose I need to actually try the idea out before giving up on it, but the thought I was relying on the enemy's actions for maximizing my offensive capabilities did give me pause.
Tiger and panther is a thought, but at low levels (where I usually play), I feel as though the build would suffer.
Snapping turtle/crane/snake would definitely make a wicked grappler, but it also feels a bit like a concession, in that it only improves on the monk's extant skill palette; personally, I'd like to see a build that maximized damage (again, just a personal desire).
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When UC first came out, I was really keen on the idea of a MoMS that started with Panther and Snake Styles and went from there - you could have 3 style feats at level 2, and could potentially get a ton of AoOs. Upon my reflection, my main reservation has been that if enemies stop AoOing, or even attacking you altogether, the main function of your build (additional attacks) has been completely negated. I suppose I need to actually try the idea out before giving up on it, but the thought I was relying on the enemy's actions for maximizing my offensive capabilities did give me pause.
Tiger and panther is a thought, but at low levels (where I usually play), I feel as though the build would suffer.
Snapping turtle/crane/snake would definitely make a wicked grappler, but it also feels a bit like a concession, in that it only improves on the monk's extant skill palette; personally, I'd like to see a build that maximized damage (again, just a personal desire).
If you really want to focus on damage instead then you should look into a Natural weapon using monk (Changeling makes it easy) who focuses on Dragon, Panther and Boar style and invests in the vital strike chain.
This is a build that can easily be doing 6D8+20ish on a move and follow it up with vicious bleeding wounds (2D6). that'll grab a targets attention and gaurantee those AoO's you want to keep your damage up.|
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A monk focusing on damage can get Dragon Style, Tiger Style and Tiger Pounce very quickly, but you have to have good DEX to pull off the TWF feat tree if you want to emulate Flurry, which can spread you pretty thin, MAD/stat wise.
As a side note, I've found that Master of Many Styles makes an amazing 2-level dip for 2H fighters, picking up a ton of skills, feats, class abilities and save bonuses that help round out the fighter extremely well.
I agree with Mathwei that using MoMS with a race that already has natural attacks and getting feral combat can really open up your full attack options while still preserving the stuff that makes MoMS really neat.
I'm currently running a choker MoMS in a monster's game that I would readily use against PCs as a GM (mainly because strangling 3~4 PCs at once is simply too good to pass up).
The key to MoMS is to know where you are going and when/how you want to get there. This is not an archetype for a new player or someone that doesn't want to do some intense thinking on how he is going to use it.
However it does combine nicely with several other archetypes too.
If you really want to focus on damage instead then you should look into a Natural weapon using monk (Changeling makes it easy) who focuses on Dragon, Panther and Boar style and invests in the vital strike chain.
This is a build that can easily be doing 6D8+20ish on a move and follow it up with vicious bleeding wounds (2D6). that'll grab a targets attention and gaurantee those AoO's you want to keep your damage up.
Some nice thoughts. Thanks for chiming in, MaN, and everyone else, too.
What about a one level dip in synthesist? That'd help alleviate the monk's MAD, and give you 3 natural attacks to play around with.
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If you really want to focus on damage instead then you should look into a Natural weapon using monk (Changeling makes it easy) who focuses on Dragon, Panther and Boar style and invests in the vital strike chain.
This is a build that can easily be doing 6D8+20ish on a move and follow it up with vicious bleeding wounds (2D6). that'll grab a targets attention and gaurantee those AoO's you want to keep your damage up.
Some nice thoughts. Thanks for chiming in, MaN, and everyone else, too.
What about a one level dip in synthesist? That'd help alleviate the monk's MAD, and give you 3 natural attacks to play around with.
If you really want to deal with the headaches, vitriolic hatred towards the synthesist, inability to heal and the Feat cost (you'd have to spend 2 more feats to get the second natural attack into the mix) you can go that route.
Personally I just prefer playing a Changeling Monk with the adopted trait (Toothy) and getting my 3 natural attacks that way.
Personally I just prefer playing a Changeling Monk with the adopted trait (Toothy) and getting my 3 natural attacks that way.
Remember, you were the offspring of an unholy union between a half-orc and a hag.
Hence the tusks.
Because of genetics.
(It's "Tusked" by the way).
If you really want to focus on damage instead then you should look into a Natural weapon using monk (Changeling makes it easy) who focuses on Dragon, Panther and Boar style and invests in the vital strike chain.
This is a build that can easily be doing 6D8+20ish on a move and follow it up with vicious bleeding wounds (2D6). that'll grab a targets attention and gaurantee those AoO's you want to keep your damage up.
Some nice thoughts. Thanks for chiming in, MaN, and everyone else, too.
What about a one level dip in synthesist? That'd help alleviate the monk's MAD, and give you 3 natural attacks to play around with.
If you really want to deal with the headaches, vitriolic hatred towards the synthesist, inability to heal and the Feat cost (you'd have to spend 2 more feats to get the second natural attack into the mix) you can go that route.
Personally I just prefer playing a Changeling Monk with the adopted trait (Toothy) and getting my 3 natural attacks that way.
Adopted
Benefit: Select a race trait from your adoptive parents’ race.Note that it says race trait (like something from this list: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits)
You can't use it to get a racial trait, like say a Human's +2 to a stat of your choice, or a Half-Orc's alternate racial trait of toothy.
The wording is so similar that it tripped me up the first time I saw it as well.
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If you really want to focus on damage instead then you should look into a Natural weapon using monk (Changeling makes it easy) who focuses on Dragon, Panther and Boar style and invests in the vital strike chain.
This is a build that can easily be doing 6D8+20ish on a move and follow it up with vicious bleeding wounds (2D6). that'll grab a targets attention and gaurantee those AoO's you want to keep your damage up.
Some nice thoughts. Thanks for chiming in, MaN, and everyone else, too.
What about a one level dip in synthesist? That'd help alleviate the monk's MAD, and give you 3 natural attacks to play around with.
If you really want to deal with the headaches, vitriolic hatred towards the synthesist, inability to heal and the Feat cost (you'd have to spend 2 more feats to get the second natural attack into the mix) you can go that route.
Personally I just prefer playing a Changeling Monk with the adopted trait (Toothy) and getting my 3 natural attacks that way.
Adopted
Benefit: Select a race trait from your adoptive parents’ race.Note that it says race trait (like something from this list: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits)
You can't use it to get a racial trait, like say a Human's +2 to a stat of your choice, or a Half-Orc's alternate racial trait of toothy.
The wording is so similar that it tripped me up the first time I saw it as well.
this is true I meant to type Tusked not Toothy (I get those two mixed up all the time).
Tusked IS a race trait and you can get it with the adopted trait however. :)
If you really want to focus on damage instead then you should look into a Natural weapon using monk (Changeling makes it easy) who focuses on Dragon, Panther and Boar style and invests in the vital strike chain.
This is a build that can easily be doing 6D8+20ish on a move and follow it up with vicious bleeding wounds (2D6). that'll grab a targets attention and gaurantee those AoO's you want to keep your damage up.
Some nice thoughts. Thanks for chiming in, MaN, and everyone else, too.
What about a one level dip in synthesist? That'd help alleviate the monk's MAD, and give you 3 natural attacks to play around with.
If you really want to deal with the headaches, vitriolic hatred towards the synthesist, inability to heal and the Feat cost (you'd have to spend 2 more feats to get the second natural attack into the mix) you can go that route.
Personally I just prefer playing a Changeling Monk with the adopted trait (Toothy) and getting my 3 natural attacks that way.
Adopted
Benefit: Select a race trait from your adoptive parents’ race.Note that it says race trait (like something from this list: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits)
You can't use it to get a racial trait, like say a Human's +2 to a stat of your choice, or a Half-Orc's alternate racial trait of toothy.
The wording is so similar that it tripped me up the first time I saw it as well.
Orcs of Golarion has a trait called Tusked that gives a bite attack to half-orcs. It's a race trait, not a racial trait.
i toyed with the idea of snake and panther styles combined with crane, fight defensively all the time, and each attack that misses gives you an attack (up to a limit) and each opp you provoke provokes and attack of opp of your own.
fight defensively and move around to provoke as many opps as possible with dodge and mobility most should miss and they provoke two attacks for each opp they take. sounded like fun, but has no application in any of my games at the moment, and for the build to come to maturity you need 8 feats
The biggest problem is that attacks of opportunity are optional. Creatures don't have to take them. Intelligent creatures will see within two rounds that it's what you want them to do and wouldn't attack you on your turn, unless that is ruled to be too meta-gamey.
The biggest problem is that attacks of opportunity are optional. Creatures don't have to take them. Intelligent creatures will see within two rounds that it's what you want them to do and wouldn't attack you on your turn, unless that is ruled to be too meta-gamey.i toyed with the idea of snake and panther styles combined with crane, fight defensively all the time, and each attack that misses gives you an attack (up to a limit) and each opp you provoke provokes and attack of opp of your own.
fight defensively and move around to provoke as many opps as possible with dodge and mobility most should miss and they provoke two attacks for each opp they take. sounded like fun, but has no application in any of my games at the moment, and for the build to come to maturity you need 8 feats
I wouldn't see it as too meta-gamey unless the opponent is too stupid to understand not to do that (mindless creatures probably would still swing while and animal probably wouldn't).
However if they refuse to attack you then you set yourself up on the offensive pretty well too (hit away without them swinging) -- though this might not be enough.
This is why I recommend tiger and dragon since you at least get two swings each round on your attack (which isn't a bad deal honestly for the early levels).
Essentially you're trading that flurry for lots of AoOs of different types, so I think dipping and going Full BAB class works best, and you can still have a martial-arts feel with many builds.
If you can actually qualify for the style feat with a normal feat, then the bonus feats at 1st/2nd level Monk can snap up the high level feats, so you may want to dip at 3rd.
I like the Duelist suggestion above because then you can parry and crane, just as long as you can get your offense high enough for them to attack you.
or a bit offbeat...
Ranged attacker (thrower build, so one hand is free at all times) provokes lots of AoOs, much to their detriment.
(Haven't played with feat expense, which is already high for maximizing the class, but w/ fighter maybe, also to keep BAB up with multishot, et al)