Were the Razmirans the first on Golarion to use false divine magic, or have there existed other groups using some variant of the Razmiran Priest archetype?
None I can think of, its pretty hard to hide that kind of thing and mostly groups like that would not get large. Razmiran being a 19th level wizard can pull off some of that stuff however and is organized.
There may have been small groups but nothing on that scale before that I know of.
I think the NPC Adept class (which exists in monstrous and barbaric cultures) kind of blurs the line between arcane and divine so you might have trouble pinpointing examples of early arcane casters pretending to be divine.
The problem being those two can not fake being what they are. The adapt is a divine class while the witch is arcane. Anyone with spellcraft or know arcana will know what they are. The archetype the OP is talking about does not even allow them to fake it.
The only thing I can find printed that allows you to fake what type of caster you are would be the False caster feat from the same book.
The problem being those two can not fake being what they are. The adapt is a divine class while the witch is arcane. Anyone with spellcraft or know arcana will know what they are. The archetype the OP is talking about does not even allow them to fake it.
How do you identify arcane/divine spell with spellcraft or knowledge arcana? I see no rules support for that in the prd at least.
Someone casting CLW will have it identified as a conjuration spell called CLW, I see no support for showing whether it's arcane or divine.
More interesting than faking the type, I would say, is their ability to cheat their way into the same effects using arcane magic and divine equipment. The same methods would make sense, I think, for groups or individuals looking to raid temples for sacred writings and relics, then exploit those for power. Of course, this would probably make you as many enemies as setting yourself up as a false god would...
I guess it depends on how you mean, anyway. There's a lots of bards (arcane casters) that might use detect magic and UMD to activate divine scrolls and other magic items of classicaly divine nature - I don't know if that constitutes being a false divine caster.
I guess it depends on how you mean, anyway. There's a lots of bards (arcane casters) that might use detect magic and UMD to activate divine scrolls and other magic items of classicaly divine nature - I don't know if that constitutes being a false divine caster.
The Razmirans can power divine scrolls or the like from arcane spell slots, without expending them, so you could theoretically have a Razmiran Priest sorcerer carrying around a divine scrollbook and cast from that at their leisure.
How do you identify arcane/divine spell with spellcraft or knowledge arcana? I see no rules support for that in the prd at least.
Someone casting CLW will have it identified as a conjuration spell called CLW, I see no support for showing whether it's arcane or divine.
They do indeed spot which is which. Divine spells are cast differently even if it is the same spell. Paizo have even used that in back stories for some of the iconics.
They common folks may not know, but anyone with spellcraft or the correct know skills can tell.
They do indeed spot which is which. Divine spells are cast differently even if it is the same spell. Paizo have even used that in back stories for some of the iconics.
They common folks may not know, but anyone with spellcraft or the correct know skills can tell.
Do you have any rule basis for that or is it just houseruled/golarion/whatever?
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Do you have any rule basis for that or is it just houseruled/golarion/whatever?They do indeed spot which is which. Divine spells are cast differently even if it is the same spell. Paizo have even used that in back stories for some of the iconics.
They common folks may not know, but anyone with spellcraft or the correct know skills can tell.
It's not stated as a rule under Knowledge (arcana) or Spellcraft, but it might be a house rule or something, or one of those unwritten setting assumptions.
I don't recall seeing it mentioned in the writeup of Rahadoum, which would be the logical place for it.
Detect magic doesn't seem to tell arcane from divine magic (unless I'm missing it), but arcane sight explicitly *does* (which strengthens the case that mundane skill uses and lower level divinations do not).
While the rules do not outright say it, it is both common sense and within what the rules do say. I Mean spell craft can tell what spell you are casting but not that you and the cleric cast it in totally different ways? The same goes with know arcana and know religion. If you do not cast the spell any different then there would not be divine/arcane split for the same spells.
The setting does assume you can and this is a key part of the iconic Oracles write up, a simple roll found her out. Paizo has built upon that assumption as well. Rahadoun can tell the difference between a bard casting CLW and a divine caster doing the same, even though the spell works the same. The whole Archetype the Op is talking about would not exist if you could not tell divine spells from arcane spells.
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To me spellcraft during casting might. Afterall many spells have a M/DF component. Being able to correctly identify the components and base magical practices of the spell during casting (AKA Spellcraft DC 15+SLVL) might differentiate if there is enough oomph to differentiate. A cure light wounds spell may not pop as arcane or divine (has only V,S), but a knowledge arcana check would quickly give you a list of the suspects who can cast the spell.
Now, when the same bard casts Calm Emotions, and the DC17 spellcraft check pings and shows 'Hey, he has no DF, WTF!?!' and knowledge arcana tells you that 2/3 of the classes who can cast that spell have to use a DF, you can whittle it down to it being a bard.
Now thats not to say every expert 2 or 3 in Razmiran knows that the whole ordeal is a sham. There may be a few, but the swift justice of the Living God keeps the peons in check, and a naysayer might be found six to eight weeks later being a devout ascetic.
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Now thats not to say every expert 2 or 3 in Razmiran knows that the whole ordeal is a sham. There may be a few, but the swift justice of the Living God keeps the peons in check, and a naysayer might be found six to eight weeks later being a devout ascetic.
And that's really what matters, even more than how the mechanics work, is how it *needs* to work for the setting to continue plugging along as designed.
There are underground religionists in Rahadoum, so it's not *too* easy to catch them, and there's an entire nation worshipping a false god that is 'getting away with it,' so, again, it can't be *too* easy to tell that this 'priest' is actually a bard casting the arcane version of cure light wounds.
Just as Rahadoum and Razmir kind of require for there to be no godless 'Clerics of Philosophy' in the setting (even if the rules, mechanically, would allow that), their existence also requires for it not to be too easy to tell the difference between an arcane / divine spellcaster and someone pretending to be an arcane / divine spellcaster.
Arcane sight, at 3rd level, explicitly can tell the difference, which works fine for Rahadoum (as it means that divine spellcasters *can* be caught) and for Razmir (as it means that frauds don't have to worry about dirty peasants on the street catching them, since it requires a 5th level arcanist to prove their fraud).
Ya know Arcane sight isn't a bard spell and paizo did not use that in the backstory. They used the idea of anyone trained in magic could tell. To say they had to use arcane sight changes both that story and most of the history of that country.
Also if you can't tell, there is no need for two feats and the archetype to fool people. Yet they made all that and keep acting as if it is easily found out.
Common folks can't tell, but anyone with a little knowledge could. Ol Raz gets away with it as he has way to hide it and common folk just do not know and he himself is one of the most powerful casters alive.
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I'm sure there have been other false gods in the past. After all, there's a reason the other gods made Achaekek.
I'd imagine that most of the tales of false divinity came about from before the time of the Red Mantis, with Razmir managing to find the loophole to prevent being chased constantly by the Red Mantis Assassins.
But because the Red Mantis Assassins exist, I'm sure it's happened before. Probably a lot. Or by something big. That's been removed from history.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'd think the healing aspect might also be sustaining the myth.
Razmirian 'priest': There you go my child, your son's broken arm is healed by Razmirian grace.
Expert 1: No it's not! you used a bard cure light wounds!
R'p': I know not what you speak, I simply sang a hymn to the great Razmir.
E1: I know arcane spells when I see 'em. That was a bard spell!
healed boy: Look ma! M'bone's no sticking out o my arm!
Mother: Razmir truly is a god! His priest healed my son!
R'p': See my children, let not the words of charletans and skeptics sway you. Give to your risen god!
E1: *mutters*
As much as I hate to point back to Stargate, look at how the Ori and their Priors are portrayed in seasons 9-10 to visualize the interaction.
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I guess it depends on how you mean, anyway. There's a lots of bards (arcane casters) that might use detect magic and UMD to activate divine scrolls and other magic items of classicaly divine nature - I don't know if that constitutes being a false divine caster.The Razmirans can power divine scrolls or the like from arcane spell slots, without expending them, so you could theoretically have a Razmiran Priest sorcerer carrying around a divine scrollbook and cast from that at their leisure.
THIS. I am stealing this right now.
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Are you sure some Bard or Sorcerer didn't know the 'trick' before in some way shape or form? Say some Bards getting together, doing a tent 'revival show'. Perhaps a few Clerics of Aroden develop the trick to keep their faith going for a little while, believing 'he'll be back soon' only he isn't.
I picture that scene in 'The Mummy' where the guy is pulling out holy symbols left and right.