To spot someone in a crowd

[avin]

Let's say my players will be envolved in a fight.

They will be watched by a crowd of goblin-like creatures that will be laughing, dancing, eating, jumping, singing... a crowd of crazy-like small goblinoids.

These small dudes will be short on HP, like 4E minions, posing no treat to the party. They're crazy, but not crazy enough to jump in the middle of the fight and die.

Problem is: among them something like 3 or 4 are spellcasters that will find funny hit players with spells.

Now, if players are smart enough maybe one of them will stop, find casters and deal with them.

But goblins don't look so different each others, so the guy who will chase them will need to make a Perception check to find them. As I'm not a bad DM these spellcasters have some items that will make possible to say who is who, like, let's say, a staff.

So... how I do this Perception check? What would be DC? Stealth (because they are in the middle of a crowd) vs Perception?

[Grick]

avin wrote:

But goblins don't look so different each others, so the guy who will chase them will need to make a Perception check to find them. As I'm not a bad DM these spellcasters have some items that will make possible to say who is who, like, let's say, a staff.

So... how I do this Perception check? What would be DC? Stealth (because they are in the middle of a crowd) vs Perception?

No stealth unless the casters are trying to hide, and thus moving at half speed. If they do, the perception (with modifiers) vs stealth check. (Edit: They can stealth at full speed with a penalty, so if you want them to stealth, don't forget the modifier)

If they're not hiding, I would have them make a perception check to notice them in the first place. (Creature making check is distracted (+5), Notice a visible creature OR Hear the details of a conversation (+0 (both work for spellcasting)) then modify that by Distance to the source, object, or creature( +1/10 feet)

So lets say one casts a spell from 30' away while the PCs are in combat. DC 8 to notice it. (0 base DC, +5 for distracted, +3 for 30' away)

Once they've noticed it, then later you need to pick them out of a crowd. With a ton of similar goblins about, that could be Terrible conditions (+5) modified by distance.

Or, they could cast detect magic and ping off the lingering aura =)

[avin]

Got it, but don't you think base DC should be higher due goblins being in the middle of a crowd of similar goblins?

[Onishi]

avin wrote:

Got it, but don't you think base DC should be higher due goblins being in the middle of a crowd of similar goblins?

I'd probably give them a +4 circumstance bonus. Possibly even a disguise or bluff check in addition to a stealth check. Or perhaps rather then making it a stealth check, make it a spellcraft check to determine which goblins are actually casting spells, rather then ones that are dancing around screaming gyberish and waving their arms for no reason. Quite a number of ways this one could be decided really.

[Grick]

avin wrote:

Got it, but don't you think base DC should be higher due goblins being in the middle of a crowd of similar goblins?

It depends entirely on how difficult you want it to be.

Do you want the PCs to spot them? If so, use a low DC. If not, use a high DC. You know what the PCs perception skills are, add 10 to that and that's about what they'll get. Set DC accordingly.

You could easily say that they're distracted (+5), in terrible conditions (+5), and 30' away (+3) then use that to modify their perception checks vs a goblin stealth check (which is 20 for a goblin taking 10). So if they beat a 33 they spot the guy!

Personally, don't worry about it. Your PCs will ignore it, or just start killing bystanders, or run away, or pretty much anything but what you expect and plan for them to do.

DM: "A magical force turns your hair pink during the battle. The creatures laugh."
PC: "Widened Fireball in the middle of the crowd."
DM: "... there's children and stuff in there..."
PC: "So, do they get a bonus on their Reflex save, or ?"

[Stubs McKenzie]

It really is up to you to set the dcs (I recommend 2 DCs, one for spotting them in the rolling crowd before spellcasting starts and one after), but I always flinch when folks suggest setting the dc based on your pcs skills. Make the encounter as hard as you think it should be (DC wise), and let the chips fall where they may. How thick is the crowd? How hard will it be for the spellcasters to move and cast in the crowd? (If you give a + to the dc at 10 or higher, it should be because it is a near mosh pit, which should require concentration checks to cast in). Give a + to the dc based on the noise separate from the dc for the size and movement of the crowd, as the noise may die down, or the crowd might get dispersed while the other condition remains. Lastly, as always, have fun with it!

EDIT: Also remember that if there are over 100 or so folks in the crowd, you can (and probably should) treat it as a humanoid swarm, giving it a single set of hps, saving throws, abilities and attacks/damage, instead of having attacks and spells effect individuals outside of the casters. It would possibly allow a fireball or other AOE to not completely negate the crowd issues. Even when the swarm hps reach 0 they will still be a distraction as they disperse over the next few rounds.

[avin]

Grick wrote:

DM: "A magical force turns your hair pink during the battle. The creatures laugh."
PC: "Widened Fireball in the middle of the crowd."
DM: "... there's children and stuff in there..."
PC: "So, do they get a bonus on their Reflex save, or ?"

hahahaha :)

Hope not :)

Goblin will be casting fireballs and lightningbolts... they better chase them or run. Ignore won't be a smart move :)

[avin]

Thanks guys, I know how to do it now :)