Ok, so the Monk in my game has Monk's Robes, and does 2d8+8 damage. His friendly druid cast Strong Jaw, so that his attacks do 4d8+8. Then the wizard cast Enlarge on him, so do his attacks now do 6d8+8. Using his flurry of blows, with a hit ratio of 75% (with 5 attacks), he will be doing minimum 42, and maximum 162 points of damage per round. Is it just me, or does this sound like a bit much?
Does the damage increase from Strong Jaws stack with the damage increase from Enlarge?
Yes it does. Keep in mind though, you won't have that 75% for all 5 attacks, and that 75% alone is cutting 25% out of your expected damage per hit. (Oversimplified math is oversimplified, but gets the point across.)
Can you give us the actual attack pattern for this Monk? Also something else to remember, 4d8 of that damage isn't even the Monk's damage, it's damage that came from somebody else buffing the Monk (unless said Monk is drinking potions, in which case he isn't attacking right away.)
A monk doesn't have natural weapons nor natural attacks. How does strong jaw help him?
A creature that can increase its natural weapon damage using strong jaw stacks the increase with that due to larger size, since strong jaw is not a polymorph or size-increase effect.
A Monk's unarmed strike is explicitly called out as benefiting from effects as both natural weapons and manufactured weapons. Hence you see people casting Magic Fang/Greater Magic Fang on the monk.
Yes they stack.
No it's not abuse. That strategy is taking 3 party members to pull off, which already helps keep it in check. To compare balance, you have to compare that to other strategies that depend on 3+ party members; not to strategies that only depend on one. Hence, the increased damage is a group effort, not just the monk's power. Good stuff happens when parties actually use teamwork.
That being said, the monk suffers from so many mechanical issues (not the least of which being complete MADness), that I'm all for any strategy that gives him a boost.
Kazejin wrote: Yes they stack.
No it's not abuse. That strategy is taking 3 party members to pull off, which already helps keep it in check. To compare balance, you have to compare that to other strategies that depend on 3+ party members; not to strategies that only depend on one. Hence, the increased damage is a group effort, not just the monk's power. Good stuff happens when parties actually use teamwork.
Pretty much what he said. If you have a bunch of party members buffing you with short duration buff spells, you will end up being capable of amazing things.
hogarth wrote: Kazejin wrote: Yes they stack.
No it's not abuse. That strategy is taking 3 party members to pull off, which already helps keep it in check. To compare balance, you have to compare that to other strategies that depend on 3+ party members; not to strategies that only depend on one. Hence, the increased damage is a group effort, not just the monk's power. Good stuff happens when parties actually use teamwork.
Pretty much what he said. If you have a bunch of party members buffing you with short duration buff spells, you will end up being capable of amazing things. Thank you everyone for the feedback. One of the reasons the question came up was because if a cleric casts Righteous Might on themselves, another caster cannot stack Enlarge on them as well.
In this situation (in Scarwall Castle), the monk without the spells was able to kill a Kyton in one round. With the spells, it is conceivable that he will be able kill the dragon in one round. Yes a group working together is good, but when one person with two buff spells can possibly do 70 to 280 points of damage each round, how do I as a GM offer the group a challenge? This is not a one-off thing, it will become a regular tactic. Sure a creature could dispel the combo, or they could fight in an anti-magic zone, though that is not a practical way to deal with this combination.
David Hutchinson wrote: This is not a one-off thing, it will become a regular tactic. Sure a creature could dispel the combo, or they could fight in an anti-magic zone, though that is not a practical way to deal with this combination. Don't rely on or even aim to have solo encounters. If the party is aiming to do alpha strikes on your one or two big bad guys, and they have the time to prepare for the battle then it will be unchallenged.
You have to make encounters where it's a target rich environment, where all of those buffs and attacks can be focused onto one target. Another way though is to have waves of lesser bad guys force the party to chew up their resources and buffs ahead of time and THEN let the big bad guy show up to make for an epic fight.
Lastly, if you want a solo encounter then consider taking some notes on how to modify a creature from D&D 4e, such as adding a lot more hit points. That way even after the alpha strike hits the bad guy is still standing and the players are still going to have to face him for several rounds.
Overall, to properly run with how the math works in the system a party should be facing six encounters in a single day which average out to APL+1. The system assumes that a party is getting worn down after each fight so that by the end of the day they're on the edge of their resources (hit points, spells, consumables, etc.). If you let high level parties that have a lot of spell casters just have two or three encounters in a day then they'll pretty much always blast through them.
David Hutchinson wrote: Ok, so the Monk in my game has Monk's Robes, and does 2d8+8 damage. His friendly druid cast Strong Jaw, so that his attacks do 4d8+8. Then the wizard cast Enlarge on him, so do his attacks now do 6d8+8. Using his flurry of blows, with a hit ratio of 75% (with 5 attacks), he will be doing minimum 42, and maximum 162 points of damage per round. Is it just me, or does this sound like a bit much?
Does the damage increase from Strong Jaws stack with the damage increase from Enlarge?
What level is this? If the monk is getting 5 attacks, level 11+ ? In which case this is not a big deal for damage AT ALL
Varthanna wrote: David Hutchinson wrote: Ok, so the Monk in my game has Monk's Robes, and does 2d8+8 damage. His friendly druid cast Strong Jaw, so that his attacks do 4d8+8. Then the wizard cast Enlarge on him, so do his attacks now do 6d8+8. Using his flurry of blows, with a hit ratio of 75% (with 5 attacks), he will be doing minimum 42, and maximum 162 points of damage per round. Is it just me, or does this sound like a bit much?
Does the damage increase from Strong Jaws stack with the damage increase from Enlarge?
What level is this? If the monk is getting 5 attacks, level 11+ ? In which case this is not a big deal for damage AT ALL I am running the Curse of the Crimson Throne (converting to Pathfinder RPG as I go along). The players are a Fighter-Wizard-Eldrich Knight lvl 12, a Cleric-Holy Vindicator lvl 12, a Monk lvl 12 (with Monk's Robes), a Druid lvl 11, and a Rogue lvl 11. The players have just entered castle Scarwall. They came in through the top tower (via cloud form) and are facing Nihil. Though she started invisible, the players began looting her tower, so she attacked. Unbuffed, the monk killed a summoned Kyton in 1 round. She began combat with using force cage on the rogue (the rogue looked like the worst foe), the unleashed all her powerful spells on the party. She became grappled by a summoned Dire Tiger, and then the druid cast Strong Jaw on the Monk. The Wizard then through on Enlarge, hoping to help with a grapple attempt (the monk can do Stunning Pin), only the monk's damage went from 2d8+8 per hit to 6d8+8 per hit. Suprise Mr. GM!!!
The rest of the monsters can wear them down a bit, though with this tactic, they can quite easily walk through many of the combats.
How would you challenge this party that works together?
Maybe you could use Obscurring Mist so the monk can't see what he's fighting.
Or maybe some No Save spells cast on him.
Perhaps you could use more enemies than just one. Or use summons.
Using Blur is a possibility.
As is Mirror Image.
Or Displacement.
Maybe you can use flying monsters. Then taunt the monk mercilessly since he can't do anything but throw some pointy stars at the flying enemies.
Or maybe use an anti-teleport spell and ranged characters, so he can't just dimension door up to them.
Maybe you could use Shield on your enemies. If he has a 75% chance to hit, then that one first level spell just made his to-hit chance 55%.
Perhaps Greater Invisibility is in order? Or Mislead?
Maybe Waves of Fatigue! That's no save, and will screw him up.
Sirocco is guaranteed to mess him up. They WILL take fire damage so they WILL be fatigued, then exhausted. Have a fire immune creature cast it, and fight in that area.
David Hutchinson wrote: Good info Yea, I wouldnt be too worried about it. Also, do not forget that Enlarge Person is a 1 round casting time. They can dampen this as an in-combat option.
The 11th lvl rogue looks like the worst foe? i hope that is through use of a bluff check :P
David Hutchinson wrote: One of the reasons the question came up was because if a cleric casts Righteous Might on themselves, another caster cannot stack Enlarge on them as well. Rules wrote: Magical effects that increase size do not stack. Lockjaw is not an effect that increases size. It increases the effective size for purposes of natural damage. Think of it this way. Enlarge Person increases strength, as does Bull's Strength. They stack because they're different kinds of bonuses to the same value, be it Strength or Weapon Damage (natural weapons included)
David Hutchinson wrote: In this situation (in Scarwall Castle), the monk without the spells was able to kill a Kyton in one round. With the spells, it is conceivable that he will be able kill the dragon in one round. Yes a group working together is good, but when one person with two buff spells can possibly do 70 to 280 points of damage each round, how do I as a GM offer the group a challenge? This is not a one-off thing, it will become a regular tactic. Sure a creature could dispel the combo, or they could fight in an anti-magic zone, though that is not a practical way to deal with this combination. That's with a full round attack. You're looking at a DRAGON. They're supposed to be too smart for that. Fly, cast spells, use it's breath weapon, use terrain.
Pure damage dealing is meaningless for challenging characters, just numbers. The real challenge is in the tactics up your sleeve.
(Also, again, compare to if the two casters were operating independently. That Dragon would be grateful they were just buffing a monk instead of winning the fight themselves.)
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