I've been searching for a way to gain an extra oracle mystery. Nothing I've seen yet works!
Does anyone know of any way to obtain this goal?
If the answer is no, in your opinion, would it be feasible to create a feat tree like the Eldritch Heritage chain to obtain an extra mystery, perhaps one that doesn't grant capstone abilities?
I am concerned about the power of a such a feat tree.
Any input would be very helpful!
Thanks!
Someone posted a write up on just such a feat tree. I do think it is too powerful, as it could lead to some very good combos.
Someone posted a write up on just such a feat tree. I do think it is too powerful, as it could lead to some very good combos.
Exactly what I am searching for! Know where I could find this? :)
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Here is loosely what I am considering implementing into my game. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Mystic Descent
You are descended from a long line of powerful oracles, and some portion of their power flows in your veins.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Skill Focus with one class skill of the selected mystery for this feat, character level 3rd.
Benefit: Select one Oracle mystery. You must have Skill focus in one of the class skills that mystery grants to an oracle at 1st level (for example, Intimidate for the Battle mystery). This mystery cannot be a mystery you already have, and you must still meet the deity requirement of the selected mystery. You gain one revelation of the selected mystery. For purposes of using that revelation, treat your oracle level as 1 or your character level -5, whichever is higher, even if you have levels in oracle. You do not gain any of the other revelations, and you cannot choose a final revelation. This feat does not substitute as having the Revelations class feature for the purpose of meeting the requirements of other feats.
Improved Mystic Descent
The power of your discovered heritage continues to grow.
Prerequisites: Cha 15, Mystic Descent, character level 11th.
Benefit: You gain another revelation of the mystery you selected with the Mystic Descent feat. For purposes of using any revelations gained through the use of the Mystic Descent feats, treat your oracle level as equal to your character level – 3, even if you have levels in oracle. You do not gain any of the other revelations, and you cannot choose a final revelation.
Greater Mystic Descent
Your discovered heritage reaches its zenith.
Prerequisites: Cha 17, Mystic Descent, Improved Mystic Descent, character level 17th.
Benefit: You gain an additional revelation from the mystery you selected with the Mystic Descent feat. For purposes of using that power, treat your character level as your oracle level for all your revelation powers granted by this feat, Mystic Descent, and Improved Mystic Descent. You do not gain any of the other revelations, and you cannot choose a final revelation.
With this feat, are you considered to have the revelation class feature (since you gain a revelation) for the purpose of the extra revelation feat?
Still do not advise this feat chain...
Good point.
While this feat provides access to *a* class feature, I do not see it as giving the character *the* class feature. Maybe a fine line to walk, I suppose I should figure out how to include that in the descriptions.
If I may ask, what do you consider being so broken about this?
The Eldritch Heritage feat chain provides similar access to Bloodline Powers, so why not something that gives access to oracle mystery revelations?
This is just boring to me, aside from game-balance issues.
Just because Sorceror Bloodlines are avaiable in limited form via Feat, doesn´t mean every Class Feature should be.
Sorceror Bloodlines are thematically based on your heritage, which can be stronger or weaker so Feats make sense.
Oracles are not, they are cases of the divine unknown focusing on this one individual.
Why must that type of event automatically be commonly available in micro-dosages? WITHOUT THE CURSE OF ALL THINGS?
Game-wise, anybody can already dip 1 level in Oracle, and get more Mysteries via Feats, and the Curse progresses with non-Oracle levels. That´s incredibly great.. I don´t see the need for more.
...Kick this one down the munchkin pit, I say.... 8-D
Thank you for your input!
You say that more Mysteries are actually already available via Feats currently? Could you tell me how?
The only reason I put this chain together is trying to figure out how to give an Oracle a second mystery.
If this already exists, I have no reason to give anyone else access!
I mean the Powers themselves, whch you need 1 Oracle Level to qualify to get.
Ah, I see.
So for the sake of arguments, then, let's assume the feat chain is scrapped.
How about the existence of a feat or archetype that allows an Oracle access to a 2nd mystery, albeit with a 'negative' to her oracle level regarding either one or both mysteries chosen.
How would you feel about that?
I very much appreciate your input here, I don't want to add any cheese to my game, but a player approached me with the idea and I'd like to see if I can't balance it.
I can't imagine it making much sense from a thematic perspective that kinda keeps me from thinking about it much at all. I think the handpicking of revelations quickly makes it overpowered.
Ah, I see.
So for the sake of arguments, then, let's assume the feat chain is scrapped.
How about the existence of a feat or archetype that allows an Oracle access to a 2nd mystery, albeit with a 'negative' to her oracle level regarding either one or both mysteries chosen.
How would you feel about that?
I very much appreciate your input here, I don't want to add any cheese to my game, but a player approached me with the idea and I'd like to see if I can't balance it.
This I deem much more acceptable. My worries were for things like a rogue (or ninja) with the wave mystery and wave sight, etc. I would go feat in this case.
This I deem much more acceptable. My worries were for things like a rogue (or ninja) with the wave mystery and wave sight, etc. I would go feat in this case.
That's what I am now thinking.
Additional Mystery
Prerequisites: Cha 15, Character level 11th, Revelations Class Feature
Benefit: The oracle can choose a second mystery from which to choose revelations, but the characters effective oracle level for determining the benefits of her chosen revelations are 2 lower.
Since the Final Revelation appears to be a class feature separate from "Revelation," this would keep an oracle from taking two final revelations (should the game proceed beyond level 20).
Any thoughts?
Look up the Crossblooded Sorcerer Archetype in Ultimate Magic. This is the template you'll want to use to make an oracle archetype. I suggest making it an archetype instead of a feat or ability so that it must be chosen at 1st (Oracle) level. I also HIGHLY recommend requiring a second curse that will never improve beyond 1st level.
Look up the Crossblooded Sorcerer Archetype in Ultimate Magic. This is the template you'll want to use to make an oracle archetype. I suggest making it an archetype instead of a feat or ability so that it must be chosen at 1st (Oracle) level. I also HIGHLY recommend requiring a second curse that will never improve beyond 1st level.
Similar, but different: I would make it an Oracle archetype, but I wouldn't allow the 2nd Mystery until 5th level. Extra Revelation and/or Ring of Revelation really open up the Mysteries in ways that the Sorceror Bloodlines are not opened up by Crossblooded or Eldritch Heritage.
Since you're player is looking at it for a (presumably) straight Oracle, this isn't much of an impediment, if at all. If you're trying to make something balanced of this, you have to bear in mind that the Oracle is a drastically more versatile beast than the Sorceror.
Thanks to all for the input! =)
I'm probably going to go with an archetype based on Crossblooded, as recommended.
I like the idea of putting a level req on gaining access to a second mystery here, but clearly there has to be something of a drawback (I will probably copy the crossblooded drawback of one fewer spell known at each level, as well as a permanent -2 to a save.
Again, much appreciation! Your help and suggestions greatly assisted me in incorporating this!
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i thought crossblooded had too harsh a penalty in the spells known department for what basically amounted to mix and match. with that penalty, i would feel i deserve the full benefits of BOTH bloodlines.
especially when there is a 3 feat chain that gives away the best parts of entire bloodlines to everyone.
why can't we have a 3 feat chain that gives oracle mysteries in the same way?
it's easy enough to rule that the same reveleation doesn't stack twice.
i thought crossblooded had too harsh a penalty in the spells known department for what basically amounted to mix and match. with that penalty, i would feel i deserve the full benefits of BOTH bloodlines.
especially when there is a 3 feat chain that gives away the best parts of entire bloodlines to everyone.
why can't we have a 3 feat chain that gives oracle mysteries in the same way?
it's easy enough to rule that the same reveleation doesn't stack twice.
Because revelations aren't bloodline powers. There are a wider variety of them, and they can lead to some impressive (and broken) combinations, like my earlier comment on the rogue (or ninja) with wave sight.
Because revelations aren't bloodline powers. There are a wider variety of them, and they can lead to some impressive (and broken) combinations, like my earlier comment on the rogue (or ninja) with wave sight.i thought crossblooded had too harsh a penalty in the spells known department for what basically amounted to mix and match. with that penalty, i would feel i deserve the full benefits of BOTH bloodlines.
especially when there is a 3 feat chain that gives away the best parts of entire bloodlines to everyone.
why can't we have a 3 feat chain that gives oracle mysteries in the same way?
it's easy enough to rule that the same reveleation doesn't stack twice.
It is also slightly less of a hindrance for oracles since they get their bonus spell earlier. Making an archetype I think a -2 on fortitude saves is more suitable for the oracle archetype rather than will saves.
i thought crossblooded had too harsh a penalty in the spells known department for what basically amounted to mix and match. with that penalty, i would feel i deserve the full benefits of BOTH bloodlines.
The biggest problem with this is that it is top-heavy. By taking a splash of sorc in a build, you'd get two arcana and two powers (which is a bit much for some builds). You'd only lose one 1st level and one 0-level spell known which doesn't matter for a splash.
While it may not seem fair to the pure sorc, that is why it doesn't grant both full bloodlines. This same problem might arise with dual-mystery oracles, so keep multiclassing in mind.
Splashing a spellcaster is hardly powerful. If that makes a 1 level dip into sorcerer (which occasionally happens in organic character building sometimes...) actually viable then I'm all for it.i thought crossblooded had too harsh a penalty in the spells known department for what basically amounted to mix and match. with that penalty, i would feel i deserve the full benefits of BOTH bloodlines.The biggest problem with this is that it is top-heavy. By taking a splash of sorc in a build, you'd get two arcana and two powers (which is a bit much for some builds). You'd only lose one 1st level and one 0-level spell known which doesn't matter for a splash.
While it may not seem fair to the pure sorc, that is why it doesn't grant both full bloodlines. This same problem might arise with dual-mystery oracles, so keep multiclassing in mind.
You mean a 1 level dip into Sorceror for 2 Bloodline Arcana, a smattering of useful spells, and extra spell slots for Cantrips? I keep seeing builds for Crossblooded Orc/Draconic dips on otherwise straight Wizards due to the blasting capacity increase.
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Here is what I've come up with; I'd be interested in hearing any ideas.
Enlightened Polytheist(Archetype)
An oracle with the Enlightened Polytheist archetype selects two different mysteries. The oracle may gain access to the class skills, bonus spells, and some of the revelations of both mysteries that she has selected, but at the cost of reduced endurance and choice. (See Drawbacks)
Class Skill: An Enlightened Polytheist oracle receives the bonus class skill from both of her mysteries. If these are the same skill, this does not grant any additional benefit.
Bonus Spells: An Enlightened Polytheist oracle may select her bonus spells from either of her mysteries. The oracle also has the choice to learn a lower-level bonus spell she did not choose in place of the higher-level bonus spell she would normally gain. Lower-level bonus spells learned this way always use the spell level that they would be if the oracle had learned them with the appropriate bonus spell.
Mystery Revelations: At 5th level, an Enlightened Polytheist oracle may select a second mystery from which to choose revelations.
Drawbacks: An Enlightened Polytheist oracle has one fewer spell known at each level (including cantrips) than is present on Table 2-6: Oracle Spells Known on page 45 of the Advanced Player's Guide. Furthermore, the increased theological understanding required for an oracle to open herself to multiple mysteries forces her to constantly focus some of her will toward her spiritual well-being. An Enlightened Polytheist oracle always takes a -2 penalty on Will saves.
I'd remove the Will penalty, as the oracle has not access to 2 bloodline arcana like the sorcerer has. To have fewer spells is okay.
Until a human oracle starts using the favored class racial alternative, negating any penalty but the slower access to higher level spells. :-\
This would be true for a crossblooded sorcerer too, though.
That's what the -2 will is for.
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Right. Still, the oracle gains something less than the sorcerer, so it's not too right giving the same penalties... unless you say that revelations are stronger than bloodline powers.
So if I may suggest...
Eclectic Sage (Archetype)
An oracle with the Eclectic Sage archetype selects two different mysteries. The oracle may gain access to the class skills, bonus spells and some of the revelations of both mysteries that she has selected, but at the cost of reduced magic capabilities. (See Drawbacks)
Class Skills: An Eclectic Sage receives the bonus class skills from both of her mysteries. If some skills overlap, this does not grant any additional benefit.
Bonus Spells: An Eclectic Sage may select her bonus spells from either of her mysteries, except as stated below. The oracle also has the choice to learn a lower-level bonus spell she did not choose in place of the higher-level bonus spell she would normally gain. Lower-level bonus spells learned this way always use the spell level that they would be if the oracle had learned them with the appropriate bonus spell.
These bonus spells replace the oracle’s mystery bonus spells at these levels: know the enemy (2nd), oracle’s vessel (8th), contact other plane (10th).
Revelations: Whenever she could gain a revelation from level advancement or the Extra Revelation feat, an Eclectic Sage can choose a revelation from one or the other of her mysteries. This must be a revelation suited for her oracle level. This applies to final revelations at 20th level too.
Drawbacks: An Eclectic Sage may cast one fewer spell of each level per day than normal. If this reduces the number to 0, she may cast spells of that level only if her Charisma bonus allows bonus spells of that level.
This seems reasonable. I would recommend to substitute "one fewer spell castable" to "one fewer spell known" for the crossblooded sorcerer too, for the above said reasons.
In general, yes. I would say that bloodline powers are weaker, partly due to the stronger spell list Sorcerers have.
See if my alternative drawback's reasonable. I think it is.
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However, giving ONE oracle revelation to a character who's not an oracle is a big temptation. After all, gods whimsically choose their unwitting champions sometimes. I agree that revelations shouldn't be treated the same way as eldritch heritages, but what about something like this:
Divine Gift
Your god chose you for reasons only he knows. Although you're not a real priest, some godly gifts manifest in you.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Skill Focus with one class skill of the selected mystery, at least 3 ranks in the other two skills, character level 11th.
Benefit: Select one Oracle mystery. This cannot be a mystery you already have, and you must still meet the deity requirement of the selected mystery. You gain one revelation of the selected mystery. This must be a revelation eligible at 1st level only. For purposes of using that revelation, treat your oracle level as your character level -3 (minimum 1), even if you have levels in oracle. You do not gain any of the other revelations, and you cannot choose a final revelation. This feat does not substitute as having the Revelations class feature for the purpose of meeting the requirements of other feats.
This feat can be chosen only once.
This way should be fairly balanced. However, if an oracle wants one revelation only from another mystery, there's the Strange Revelation feat from Open Design's Visions of the Oracle.