[3.P] Vampire Lord Bard 10 vs. Succubus Bard 10

[ImperatorK]

I've got two NPCs - a human advanced vampire lord Bard 10 which is CR 15 (according to PF CR system) and a succubus advanced Bard 10 which also is CR 15 (Bard not associated according to PF CR system).
I know that CR systems are crap, but I still like to use them as guidelines.
Here's my problem - I'm not certain if those two are roughly the same CR in practice. Theoretically, yes, but in reality? I have a hunch that the succubus is stronger as a CR 15 creature.
Here are their stats (in case that you wonder why some of the stats are a little different or weird, I'm using my houserules):

Quote:

Vampire Lord Bard 10

female NE human advanced vampire lord Bard, Level 10, Init +11, HP 164/164, DR 15/magic & silver, 2/-, Speed 30 ft. (50 ft. fly perfect)
AC 33, Touch 20, Flat-footed 25 (+7 Dex, +12 Natural, +3 Misc)
Fort +13, Ref +26, Will +24, Base Attack Bonus 7/2 *
Abilities Str 26, Dex 24, Con -, Int 22, Wis 21, Cha 31

Quote:

Succubus Bard 10

male CE incubus advanced Incubus/Bard, Level 8/10, Init +6, HP 229/229, DR 10/cold iron or good, 1/-, Speed 30 ft. (fly 50 ft. avarage)
AC 28, Touch 19, Flat-footed 21 (+6 Dex, +8 Natural, +3 Misc)
Fort +14, Ref +19, Will +19, Base Attack Bonus 15/10/10 *
Abilities Str 20, Dex 23, Con 27, Int 24, Wis 22, Cha 35

Just to be clear: I'm not asking for optimization. I just want to know your opinion of who of those two is stronger/better as a CR 15.

And also if he (one of those two) is an appropriate CR 15 challenge.
In case that you guys don't know what vampire lord I'm talking about: this one (note that this bonuses are in addition to normal vampire bonuses).

[Sean FitzSimon]

This really depends here. If you want to determine which is stronger you need to consider both how your players will attack the enemy and how the enemy will attack the players.

Defense

Armor: The vampire clearly wins here.
Saves: Another win for the vampire. Spellcasting simply won't stick unless it's a fort save. Being undead offers a lot of blanket immunities, too.
DR: Vampire wins again. You'll need a +3 weapon to penetrate material based DR, so it might be moot for both parties. However, the succubus's is overcome with a single spell: align weapon.
HP: Succubus comes out ahead here.

Offense:

Weapon attacks: The succubus is a *much* better attacker.
Magical attacks: The succubus wins again with her higher charisma.
Initiative: Vampire wins with nearly double the initiative bonus.

All in all, the vampire has a much stronger defense and the succubus has a much stronger offense. You'll need to decide yourself which of these is more difficult for your particular party.

[Remco Sommeling]

The vampire base CR would be 11, bard 10 = CR 9 +2 from the vampire template. If you add in the vampire lord template it would come up to CR 14 not 15.

What I usually do in the case of vampires as a GM is to give them 4 racial HD like vampire spawn as base CR 4 creatures a vampire spawn with at least 5 class levels becomes a full vampire instead. In this way a vampire bard 10 would be CR 12, 1 higher than usual, with vampire lord template added it would put the CR up to CR 15. It would increase the AB to reasonable levels and hp roughly equal to that of the succubus, as well as boosting the DC of it's innate abilities, compensating a bit for a lower charisma.

On a final note I would not put the treasure of the vampire lord to work in useful magical items and the like since it has 4 times the usual wealth, but rather put most of it to work in the form of less practical objects of art and ancient relics.

[taepodong]

Vampire Lord all day long.

[LazarX]

Circumstances and accompanying minions will also tell the tale.

Neither of these two is the type to be encountered alone. Straight up combat alone, both of these are dog meat. However with a proper setting, proper use of their abilities and minions, they're both formidable, but you'll typically seem them used very differently.

I don't quite understand the split level on the Succubus though.

[ImperatorK]

Quote:

The vampire base CR would be 11, bard 10 = CR 9 +2 from the vampire template. If you add in the vampire lord template it would come up to CR 14 not 15.

You missed the advanced template.

Quote:

I don't quite understand the split level on the Succubus though.

Huh? If you mean the "8/10" it is 8 racial HD and 10 Bard HD.

[Talynonyx]

Also, the poor Vampire Lord cannot benefit from his own inspire courage, because it is a mind-affecting ability and undead are immune. As is inspire greatness and inspire heroics.

[ImperatorK]

Talynonyx wrote:

Also, the poor Vampire Lord cannot benefit from his own inspire courage, because it is a mind-affecting ability and undead are immune. As is inspire greatness and inspire heroics.

Those will most probably be replaced with archetypes or ACFs.