Those of you who have seen my posts may have noticed that essentially every complaint I have about the Pathfinder rules is based in how little they resemble the AD&D rules, and how many of my favorite elements of Pathfinder are replacing elements of AD&D I like that were removed in D&D 3.X.
In that spirit, I'm going to post some rules suggestions that I think would make Pathfinder better resemble the parts of AD&D that I liked.
This should likely be considered a "high power" variant, since it drastically improves the capabilities of melee classes and makes use of the Gestalt rules.
Combat:
- Characters may make a Full Attack as a Standard Action.
- All iterative attacks are made at the character's full BAB.
- Two-Weapon Fighting allows a single additional attack during a Full Attack action. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting reduce the attack penalty by -1 each.
- Monk Flurry of Blows functions as it did in D&D 3.5.
- The Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization feats grant Fighters an additional attack each round with their chosen weapons.
Races & Classes:
- Every character class for which a race has an alternate favored class bonus counts as a favored class for that race.
- Characters receive +1 HP and +1 skill point whenever they advance in one or more favored classes, and gain the alternate favored class bonus for every favored class they advance in.
- Multiclass characters are handled using the Gestalt variant rules, with the exception that they gain an additional skill point per class after the first.
- Each character has an XP factor that determines the table they use for level advancement. This XP factor is equal to 1 for every base class the character takes, plus 1/2 each for NPC classes or Prestige Classes.
- The XP necessary to reach 2nd level is equal to the XP factor times 1,000 XP.
- Characters may begin advancing in one or more new classes at any time; they gain the 1st level abilities of the new class(es), their XP resets to zero, and they advance in the new class(es) according to their new XP factor. When their level in the new class(es) equals their old level, they advance in all classes normally.
- Subject to DM approval, characters may advance in two or more conflicting class archetypes by adding 1/2 to their XP factor per additional archetype.
I am still working out some details, such as racial paragons and how to handle races with level adjustments.
Can you elaborate on the multi-classing aspect? The way you've presented it is kind of confusing.
Okay. In AD&D, when a character was multiclassed, they divided their XP by the number of classes they had and then advanced each class when it got enough XP to gain a level.
In the Gestalt rules, you get to choose two classes at each level and gain the best BAB, HD, Saving Throws, and Skill Points from each class along with the class features from both classes.
In my system, multiclass characters are like Gestalt characters, except that they gain levels slower than normal characters-- like the "fast", "medium", and "slow" advancement charts. The formula up there probably needs some tweaking, and I'd make an XP table before actually using the rules.
Does this mean some classes level up faster than other classes like in Baldur's Gate? I always wondered why that was. I started with 3.5, so I have no AD&D experience.
I would like to hear a clear explanation of this multiclass system. I like multiclassing in Baldur's Gate, except I don't get why humans can't do it. Dual classing, however, was just stupid.
Can you elaborate on the multi-classing aspect? The way you've presented it is kind of confusing.Okay. In AD&D, when a character was multiclassed, they divided their XP by the number of classes they had and then advanced each class when it got enough XP to gain a level.
In the Gestalt rules, you get to choose two classes at each level and gain the best BAB, HD, Saving Throws, and Skill Points from each class along with the class features from both classes.
In my system, multiclass characters are like Gestalt characters, except that they gain levels slower than normal characters-- like the "fast", "medium", and "slow" advancement charts.
Ah. That makes sense. I like Gestalts, so I may talk to a GM about doing this sometime in the future. Except half XP is underpowered, as a Gestalt is not twice as powerful as a single class character. It's more like 1 1/2 times the power.
Does this mean some classes level up faster than other classes like in Baldur's Gate? I always wondered why that was. I started with 3.5, so I have no AD&D experience.
I'm keeping the idea that all of the base classes advance at the same rate. Since NPC classes don't have features, and Prestige Classes mostly advance things that the character's base classes already give them, they only count as half classes.
I would like to hear a clear explanation of this multiclass system. I like multiclassing in Baldur's Gate, except I don't get why humans can't do it. Dual classing, however, was just stupid.
Always bugged me, too.
Ah. That makes sense. I like Gestalts, so I may talk to a GM about doing this sometime in the future. Except half XP is underpowered, as a Gestalt is not twice as powerful as a single class character. It's more like 1 1/2 times the power.
It's half XP, not half level. A multiclass character should only be a couple of levels behind unless they're advancing in a lot of classes.
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Combat:
[list]Characters may make a Full Attack as a Standard Action.
All iterative attacks are made at the character's full BAB.
Are these changes applied to creatures too?
Because I have at least a dozen examples of mid-range monsters already quite dangerous that would become absolutely lethal, being able to withstand the first round of punishment and soon after dealing enough damage to make their opponents disappear in a spray of gore.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think melee characters had nearly as many base attacks in Ad&D as they do in Pathfinder. So to pump all their attacks to full BaB without first reducing the number of them would be going beyond the spectrum of returning to an Older rule Variant...
And as a very real side effect it would probably make high level Melee absurdly deadly. Like, in a crazy off the chart sort of way. (Since melee already does some of the best DPS in PF at the moment anyway)
I know you stated that you'd like to make a "High Powered" variant. But are you really sure you want it THAT high powered?
Are these changes applied to creatures too?
Because I have at least a dozen examples of mid-range monsters already quite dangerous that would become absolutely lethal, being able to withstand the first round of punishment and soon after dealing enough damage to make their opponents disappear in a spray of gore.
I'll take your word for it, but could you name a few so that I know what we're talking about? Obviously, any system change as major as this is going to require other adjustments to get right.
One possible suggestion would be allowing a full attack action as a standard action with all attacks at a -2 (or -3) penalty. In that way you can either take an attack action (with a single swing or two if two-weapon-fighting) at top attack bonus, or full attack with a penalty to each swing. Real Full Attacks would have no penalty.
It sounds like you're saying that allowing all attacks at full bonus is fine, and allowing a full attack as a standard action is fine-- separately-- but that both at the same time are a problem. I can see where you are coming from on this, but the inability of melee characters to move and attack is one of the biggest sources of the disparity between melee and casters.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think melee characters had nearly as many base attacks in Ad&D as they do in Pathfinder.
You are correct. Essentially, where a Pathfinder Fighter would get an extra attack per round, an AD&D character would get an extra attack per 2 rounds. Perhaps the extra attacks on (Greater) Weapon Specialization are too much.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think melee characters had nearly as many base attacks in Ad&D as they do in Pathfinder. So to pump all their attacks to full BaB without first reducing the number of them would be going beyond the spectrum of returning to an Older rule Variant...
And as a very real side effect it would probably make high level Melee absurdly deadly. Like, in a crazy off the chart sort of way. (Since melee already does some of the best DPS in PF at the moment anyway)
I know you stated that you'd like to make a "High Powered" variant. But are you really sure you want it THAT high powered?
AD&D Characters maxed out at 5 attacks every 2 rounds at 13th lvl and you had to take weapon specialization to get it otherwise 3/2 was max.
Also, AD&D character hp progression levels off after 9th level, you only get a set# of hp based on Class.
Take a look at OSRIC if you need additional inspiration, it's essentially AD&D with some updates and tweaks.
Also, AD&D character hp progression levels off after 9th level, you only get a set# of hp based on Class.
Hit point inflation was one of the reasons I was less concerned with allowing so many attacks per round.