In the campaign I am currently running one of my players is a Gnomish Paladin. I love his concept of taking evil out at the knees, but I'm running into a few issues around lawful good. The party is currently up against a goblin and hobgoblin based bad. They are a threat to the local villages and cities. They set off the detect evil alarm. And gnomish society hates goblins and has a rather deadly view of how they should be dealt with. So there's a clean slate to go off and protect the realm, bisect some goblins and that should be the end of it.
But what if a goblin asks for quarter and the Paladin ignores the goblinoid and kills him? Is he headed for a fall?
If he's following the laws of his society, they are sworn enemies of the goblins. That leaves me a little confused on obeying laws, dealing with the threat, and where mercy would fit in to this picture.
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This is something the DM and Player should hash out before the game.
Some groups love to play where monsters are monsters and kill 'em all. Pally has free reign, here.
Some groups break monsters down in 2 groups, though who could reform and switch alignments (typical choices are goblins, humans, orcs, dwarves, gnolls and elves) and monsters that are always evil no matter what (typical choices include medusae, evil outsiders, mind flayers and evil dragons -- no possibility for rehabilitation).
Discuss what your game's monsters are like.
Can there exist a "good" goblin. If the answer is "yes" then a goblin that surrenders can be given quarter if he tries to rehabilitate himself. And you can always have a PC Sense Motive to see if the goblin is really willing to give good a chance or just pretending. That's a mechanic (skill check) that the other PCs can participate in so it's not just one PC.
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If the goblin is guilty of a great act of evil, not just being evil, then the paladin would be delivering justice by killing him. Pleading for one's life grants the opportunity for repentance, but I doubt anyone but a extremely benign paladin would rightfully even listen to such drivel. You could make it more grey area- for example that the goblin didn't fight and there's no real evidence that the goblin actually did anything evil (aside from just being evil by nature). EVEN THEN, its probably only grey area, not an outright evil act, since his deity and society both ought to view killing goblins as a good deed.
You want to make it controversial? Give a host of reasons why he should question his path of martial prowess and commitment to justice in game. Sad faces are not enough. There has to be signs of capability for good in the goblins to even start thinking about sparing them. Pathfinder goblins seem especially evil.
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My current Pally, is really stupid and he's knows he's dumb. All he can do is detect evil and kill.
If a goblin detects as evil he wants to kill it; he knows he doesn't have the talent to rehabilitate.
In fact, he likes it when they surrender -- he gets a free swing if not a coup de grace. It's the other PCs that stop him and convince him to try to rehabilitate.
This happened when a hobgoblin surrendered about a month ago. wanted to try an trick the hobgoblin into doing something evil during his rehabilitation so he could kill the bastid. Pelor gave him a really bad headache and he changed his mind.
In a more serious example from a few months earlier, my Pally and the other PCs found a mom and daughter in their burnt out farmstead. They had been raped by the humans who destroyed their home and family.
Our PCs found the human bandits and the Cleric put them on trial himself -- we couldn't go to town and he was a Cleric, had the authority. My Pally got to execute the humans for rape, plunder and murder.
Unlike the hobgoblin encounter, this one was a bit more seriously played and involved but ultimately, Paladins kill bad guys.
A paladin is obligated to act in the highest ideals of chivalry and honor. Part of that means accepting a genuine surrender.
Once.
Take advantage of a paladins honor once= shame on you. Letting it happen twice= shame on the paladin.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Quick nitpick/pet peeve:
The Paladin's code and the Lawful Good alignment are two completely separate things. The code requires things that are NOT inherent to being LG - being LG is just ONE of the requirements of the code.
Now then, on to the topic at hand.
Here's a recap of the Paladon's code:
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
So to see if killing the pleading goblin breaks the Code, ask the following:
1) Did it change his alignment?2) Was it an evil act?
3) Did it disrespect legitimate authority?
4) Was it dishonorable?
5) Did he fail to help someone in need?
6) Did he fail to punish someone who harmed or threatened innocents?
I think the trick in this case is going to be #4 versus #6. He needs to be honorable while at the same time punishing the guilty.
Buuuuuuuut I don't have time to keep typing right now. Good luck!
Well the group has the hunt out evil bent. He's working with an inquisitor in the party who's keeping an eye on the whole affair. I guess the question now is: do you guys have any good, not ham handed, ways to encourage them to work as a pair to deal the justice? And I don't mean teamwork feats, I mean RP and skills usage.
Holy headaches (Batman) aside, these are new players and I'd love to see them pick up that banner and run with pairing off to weigh, measure, an deal with the evil.
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A paladin is obligated to act in the highest ideals of chivalry and honor.NO!
This is one legitimate interpretation of the Paladin.
There are many other legitimate interpretations, all equally playable. One gamer can't tell another gamer, even the DM, how to play his or her PC.
On this forum, this is fighting talk. Hope you got your brass knuckles ready!
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no brass knuckles,
no fighting,
no flaming,
honestly, no offense or attack meant.
Just that any person's idea of a particular alignment is just as valid as any other's and no gamer, not even DM, can tell another gamer how to play his or her PC.
I admit to and apoligize for being testy on Paladins. It's just that sooo many gamers over the years have spewed sooo much vitriole on Paladins because of one idiot: Sturm-Stupid-dickless-SwampDonkey-I.love.you.Hickman.but .you.should.be.shot.for.this.one-Brightblade. And sooo many gamers think that Pallys have to be just like that and have ruined countless games because of it.
I guess it's like the gamers who like playing Kender thieves who are NOTHING like Tasselhoff and get frustrated at all the Kender Hate because of that Hickman character.
Its not that a LG character would be required to accept the surrender, its that according to the paladin's code he's obligated to accept the surrender. Its dishonorable to take a cheap shot at a surrendering foe.
Mind you, he might be able to get away with "I'm not taking your surrender, pick that up an die like a goblin!" but not with taking a cheap shot at a surrendering foe.
*dusts off some really old memories*
Also note that Sturm was one of the more FLEXIBLE members of his order. He ignored a direct order to sorte out and meet the enemy on the field of battle because he know it was a dumb move.
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Its not that a LG character would be required to accept the surrender, its that according to the paladin's code he's obligated to accept the surrender. Its dishonorable to take a cheap shot at a surrendering foe.
Alternatively, it could be dishonorable to deny a defeated foe death. Or it could be dishonorable to leave an evil alive. The Paladin code dictates that the Paladin must act with honor, but it does not dictate what standard of honor must be used.
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The Paladin code dictates that the Paladin must act with honor, but it does not dictate what standard of honor must be used.
Thats how you wind up with the LE alignment.
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Its dishonorable to take a cheap shot at a surrendering foe.
I buy that.
I'd probably interpret it that way for most PCs, too.But I posit that it doesn't have to be interpreted as dishonorable.
In real life when the jury says guilty and the judge says "String 'im up." And the executuioner kills the guy, it's not dishonorable on the part of the executioner.
That's a far cry from D&D but I can see a Paladin accept the surrender of a goblin and say "Guilty" and cut off the goblin's head.
My argument is that if a Player wants to run his LG or CG or LN or NE PC a certain way according to his concept of the Alignment, he can. As DM my only rule regarding Alignment is that you can't ruin the game for others.
Sturm (is) one of the more FLEXIBLE members of his order.
True. And he's still a dumbass. The best part of the series is when he dies a meaningless death looking like an idiot in front of that dragon. beautiful. I cheer everytime Sturm dies.
It just bugs me that so many people think pally means "Sturm."
In the campaign I am currently running one of my players is a Gnomish Paladin. I love his concept of taking evil out at the knees, but I'm running into a few issues around lawful good. The party is currently up against a goblin and hobgoblin based bad. They are a threat to the local villages and cities. They set off the detect evil alarm. And gnomish society hates goblins and has a rather deadly view of how they should be dealt with. So there's a clean slate to go off and protect the realm, bisect some goblins and that should be the end of it.
But what if a goblin asks for quarter and the Paladin ignores the goblinoid and kills him? Is he headed for a fall?
If he's following the laws of his society, they are sworn enemies of the goblins. That leaves me a little confused on obeying laws, dealing with the threat, and where mercy would fit in to this picture.
Since you're the one running the campaign, you have the power to make sure that this situation never comes up. Rather than have goblins surrender, have them flee. Fleeing goblins may be neutralizing themselves in a fight, but they're not surrendering. That should be plenty of wiggle room to run them down.
Alternatively, what do you think the gnomes would do if a pack of goblins surrendered? Would they massacre them en masse? If not, then nor would a paladin if one surrendered to him. If cultural hatred doesn't extend that far, it shouldn't for the paladin either.
But if it does, I still think it would be inappropriate for the paladin to cack a surrendering goblin. It would just mean that the paladin is adhering to higher moral standards than his community. And I think that's appropriate.
Honestly, it all depends on the Paladin. Faiths of Purity has a set of very different codes that would react differently. At least one of them refuses to accept surrender once battle has been joined, and annother has no problem with exterminating foes and destroying their societies.
I would be fine with whatever choice the Paladin chose, as long as he applied it consistently.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Its not that a LG character would be required to accept the surrender, its that according to the paladin's code he's obligated to accept the surrender. Its dishonorable to take a cheap shot at a surrendering foe.Alternatively, it could be dishonorable to deny a defeated foe death. Or it could be dishonorable to leave an evil alive. The Paladin code dictates that the Paladin must act with honor, but it does not dictate what standard of honor must be used.
This comment reminds me of watching The Last Samurai. Tom Cruise's character sees the victorious enemy general decapitate the kneeling, helpless, defeated general.
He gets captured, and later addresses this point with the enemy general, taking a "how dare you, you monster" kind of attitude. Much like BNW's "Thats how you wind up with the LE alignment" comment above. The general, however, explains that "it was my honor to help him take his life". It was their custom in warfare. It would have been dishonorable to not kill him.
Thus, I must echo one of the sentiments expressed by another poster: there are multiple ways to go with it; he just needs to be consistent about it.
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As W E Ray said, i guess it all depends on how you want to run things.
Are Goblins evil little Irredeemable little terrors that will as soon as the party's backs are turned, begin singing " we be goblins you be food" sharpen their dog slicers, and go set fire to the nearest village of Long shanks?
If goblin surrenders and is he willing to change his ways?
If your answer as the GM is yes to the former question then yes the paladin should cut the goblin down, to spare the helpless from the little menace's depredations.
If your answer as the GM is Yes to the latter question, then the party, paladin in particular, should let the little goblin run away, to give him a chance to changes his ways.
It all depends on how you want to run things.
Thank you all for the input and it's nice to see the spread of ideas and opinions on the subject. I think I'm going to steal a fair bit from around the table here and faction the goblin tribes. Maybe some aren't quite as bad as others maybe some are real jerks. Will keep things more interesting if sometimes the enemy is not always as generally painted.
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Really, Lincoln, if even just one other Paizonian looks up the lyrics for "Thick as a Brick" by Jethro Tull we'll have accomplished a great thing today.
And we all win.
(But I win more. It's my PC named Aqualung.
Yup, a Paladin named after a man who watches little girls with bad intent. And yes, I will have my Salvation a la mode / With a cup of tea.)
So wait my paladin from a Polynesian island fighting an occupying imperial force(who are allied with demons) who is from a headhunter culture and i have no problem engaging in guerrilla tactics, taking heads as trophies, encouraging my fellow islanders to engage in disinformation and outright deception to enemy troops so we can attack exposed positions might not be playing his alignment or cultural mores correctly?
It just bugs me that so many people think pally means "Sturm."
Strictly talking about classes Sturm wasn't even a Paladin, he's listed as a Knight of the Crown, the lowest order of the Knights of Solamnia. Depiste they are LG and they have a code of honor they aren't paladins.
Really, Lincoln, if even just one other Paizonian looks up the lyrics for "Thick as a Brick" by Jethro Tull we'll have accomplished a great thing today.
And we all win.
(But I win more. It's my PC named Aqualung.
Yup, a Paladin named after a man who watches little girls with bad intent. And yes, I will have my Salvation a la mode / With a cup of tea.)
He gets captured, and later addresses this point with the enemy general, taking a "how dare you, you monster" kind of attitude. Much like BNW's "Thats how you wind up with the LE alignment" comment above. The general, however, explains that "it was my honor to help him take his life". It was their custom in warfare. It would have been dishonorable to not kill him.
-It was the other general's custom too: in other words the other person wanted to die and surrendered to save his men. I doubt the goblin is acting under the same moral precepts.
If I may interject a single minor triviality and nitpick against the GM of the original poster into this conversation....
If a goblin detects as evil, then it's open season with no quarter given nor asked, and no risk to anyone's pally status, regardless of actions taken.
Goblins are under 5HD. The only goblins that have an 'evil' aura in the detect spell sense is if you have a goblin who has become an outsider, A goblins cleric, a goblin anti-paladin, or an undead goblin with more than 1 HD.
A goblin anti-paladin or cleric deserves whatever is coming at them, and I'm fairly certain that outsiders and undead aren't big on the whole 'Changing their ways' thing.
Anywho... back on track.
I would suggest that the world of Golarian (or whatever your campaign world is), probably isn't as kind hearted and forgiving as modern society. Think less 'Max of 15 years in a minimum security prison, He'll only get 8. 5 with good behavior, paroled out in 2' and think more.... Dark ages 'lose a body part'. Punishment for banditry is hanging in Kingmaker, and odds are the Goblins are at LEAST guilty of that and more. You'd be able to argue that if they have attacked you, then they have engaged in banditry (or attempted murder or assault, or insert any one of a dozen different crimes in here) and you'd be within your rights to administer justice to them.
If they surrender with the intent to stab you in the back at the first opportunity, or with no intent on changing their ways.... The only question your really need to consider is if your local laws (or your church laws) allow a citizen to kill a bandit. Odds are... a pally, being a divine instrument of justice and all, is allowed to administer justice.
If they are genuine (slap your GM, then), it may come down to you as a character. Stories are rife with redeemed villains and bad guys who changed their ways, or were just forced into a bad situation. Without a clear knowledge of if the goblin is the exception who is actually good (have you just found the goblin equiv of Drizzt?) things become a lil more hazy and you could probably argue either way. You want to be pretty certain though that they are guilt of something that has a death sentence with it before carrying it out though. You may on the other hand want him to earn his redemption (though that may land you in trouble with the courts who don't 'get' why you are harboring a criminal).
Now.... you did invest in sense motive to tell the difference between Stabby McKidney and Drizzle Downunder-em, right?
[Edit]: No risks regardless of action taken within reason. Killing them when surrendered is fine. Torturing their friends and family in front of them while dissolving them in a gelatinous cube... less so.
Goblins are under 5HD. The only goblins that have an 'evil' aura in the detect spell sense is if you have a goblin who has become an outsider, A goblins cleric, a goblin anti-paladin, or an undead goblin with more than 1 HD.
Or any evil goblin with 5 or more levels.
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Strictly talking about classes Sturm wasn't even a Paladin
My words are a whisper, your deafness a shout /
I may make you feel but I can't make you thinkWhat you say is true only in that we're talking 1E. Sure, Sturm is stated as a 6th lvl Ftr in the Dragonlance modules (just looked) but remember, back in the day in order to be a Pally you needed like, an 18 CHA and 16s in STR & WIS, I think even 12s or 14s in a couple other stats. You couldn't just "be" a Paladin like you can now; all the Classes had Ability score minimum requirements and the Pally's were so sky-high no one ever, without breaking the rules or cheating on stat-rolling, was a Paladin.
Besides, I hope I've been interpreted as "Sturm personality-like" in my Sturm-hate, not "Sturm Knight-of-Solamnia."
Players that run their Pallys like the self-righteous dick that Sturm is, and who think that's the way to play LG or pallys, are where my vitriol is spewed. Not a particular PC build.
Sturm the character sucks. Sturm the PC build is fine.
Your sperm's in the gutter your love's in the sink.
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A pally, being a divine instrument of justice and all, is allowed to administer justice...
You use the euphemism.... to justify the murder, but the duty to "punish evil" is not the same as "invariably execute evil."
This is an example of why I believe that Alignment interpretations are the one thing a DM can't have absolute rule over.
One Player's interpretation of an Alignment is as valid as another's in-game because the Alignments are based, at least in big part, on our own beliefs.
Like Lincoln says, Ecaterina's argument is valid; and like Lincoln says, he disagrees.
To the OP (and gamers everywhere), this is why you can't demand a Player in your game play the Alignment your way.
Ecaterina and Lincoln can both play a paladin in the same game, even with the same deity or order or whatever, and both have their own interpretation of the paladin code.
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P.S. Y'know, I really ought to know better than ever to post on threads to do with paladins or alignment by now.
Now I disagree with this.
I think discourse on Alignment is only a good thing.
Even looking at these posts, there're no attacks against or belittling of other Players. We read each other's opinions and think about our own and all become better gamers for our own games during situations that could be really destructive to our group.
If any of us ever have a potential Alignment situation in our games, wouldn't this be a good Thread to reference?
IF GOBLIN HAVE CHANCE TO SURRENDER, PALADIN AM CLEARLY NOT DEALING ENOUGH DAMAGE.