Note that it is a melee touch attack. That means the necromancer will have to use two rounds to deliver the spell. Also its a touch attack (which he may fail, given that his attack bonus probably only about +5 or so) AND saves.
I think enervation is nastier as far aa 4th level spells go.
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Note that it is a melee touch attack. That means the necromancer will have to use two rounds to deliver the spell. Also its a touch attack (which he may fail, given that his attack bonus probably only about +5 or so) AND saves.
I think enervation is nastier as far aa 4th level spells go.
2 rounds? How do you figure that? You can cast this spell, move and deliver the touch attack all in one round.
I agree though, Enervation is better. You will get most advantage with Fleshworm Infestation by targetting rogues and casters. The problem with that is you will have to get past the fighters to do so. Then you will have to hit your opponent, which is a touch attack. A rogue will probably have a touch AC of about 16-18 by this point which is by no means a certain hit and a wizard or sorcerer will be pushing out Displacement and Mirror Image by this point. On top of all of that, even if your necromancer manages to pull this off he will then be in the midst of the player party and ripe for a counter attack.
Plus the effect isn't that good. 6d6 damage is an average of 21 points of damage- hardly earth shattering even for a Wizard or Sorcerer. 12 points of Dex damage is a pain but a scroll of Restoration (which your paladin can cast) fixes that.
Compare with Enervation. You target the Fighters (touch ac around 14) then they will take at least 1 negative level with no save. Also Phantasmal Killer is a real threat to Rogues.
Alternatively at that level you could pull out Black Tentacles, Crushing Despair, Mass Reduce Person, Wall of Fire, Confusion, Fear, Ice Storm, Rainbow Pattern and Shout all of which will affect the whole PC party. Plus on top of all of that you could just buff your Necromancer with Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin and/or Minor Globe of Invulnerability.
So yeah, not that brilliant comparatively.
2 rounds? How do you figure that? You can cast this spell, move and deliver the touch attack all in one round.
Really? I was under the expression that casting + touching happens at the same time, so it would incur an AOO if you are adjacent to your opponent (likely interrupting the spell).
No movement between casting & touching, not even a 5 ft. step. Am I wrong?
Casting defensively would mean a 70% fail chance (1d20+9 vs DC 24).
Answered here
I disagree with Synapses Interpretation of the rules there.
The passage in the rules that states "you can cast and deliver it in the same round" just means that you can cast and touch wih the same standard action.
Casting the spell is a standard action. If its a touch attack spell, you can make a touch attack as part of this standard action.
If you move or make a 5 ft step after casting, you can not make another standard action (i. e. deliver a touch attack).
EDIT:
Seems that at least under 3.5, my interpretation is wrong:
Touch Spells in CombatMany spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
I have not found a similar explicit statemend in the PFRD though.
EDIT 2:
Nevermind:
To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action.
Played it wrong for 10+ years.
No problem. If I had a penny for every rule I found out I was playing wrong i'd have
(quick calculation)
£5.37p
Which is quite a lot when you think about it.
With or without interest?
Question, would having Protection from Evil up prevent the spell from hitting a target in the first place? Also, would a either a Monk's or Paladin's immunity to disease protect them?
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Note that it is a melee touch attack. That means the necromancer will have to use two rounds to deliver the spell. Also its a touch attack (which he may fail, given that his attack bonus probably only about +5 or so) AND saves.
I think enervation is nastier as far aa 4th level spells go.
2 rounds? How do you figure that? You can cast this spell, move and deliver the touch attack all in one round.
I agree though, Enervation is better. You will get most advantage with Fleshworm Infestation by targetting rogues and casters. The problem with that is you will have to get past the fighters to do so. Then you will have to hit your opponent, which is a touch attack. A rogue will probably have a touch AC of about 16-18 by this point which is by no means a certain hit and a wizard or sorcerer will be pushing out Displacement and Mirror Image by this point. On top of all of that, even if your necromancer manages to pull this off he will then be in the midst of the player party and ripe for a counter attack.
Plus the effect isn't that good. 6d6 damage is an average of 21 points of damage- hardly earth shattering even for a Wizard or Sorcerer. 12 points of Dex damage is a pain but a scroll of Restoration (which your paladin can cast) fixes that.
Compare with Enervation. You target the Fighters (touch ac around 14) then they will take at least 1 negative level with no save. Also Phantasmal Killer is a real threat to Rogues.
Alternatively at that level you could pull out Black Tentacles, Crushing Despair, Mass Reduce Person, Wall of Fire, Confusion, Fear, Ice Storm, Rainbow Pattern and Shout all of which will affect the whole PC party. Plus on top of all of that you could just buff your Necromancer with Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin and/or Minor Globe of Invulnerability.
So yeah, not that brilliant comparatively.
See I'm going to disagree with you on the Enervation vs. Fleshworm infestation.
Take a look at exactly what enervation does to a character. The MAXIMUM effect enervation can do is:
-4 to ability checks, CMB, CMD, Savings Throws and Skill checks. Oh and 20 points of damage MAX and starts to wear off that day.
The minimum it can do is absolutely nothing.
Fleshworm Infestation on the other hand at 7th level has a Maximum of:
-14 Dex score
-7 reflex saves
-36 Hit points
The victim can't fight you at all for the duration if you take a 5ft step each round.
AND the target is severely damaged for two weeks.
The absolute minimum however is a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks for the duration of the fight.
It's a guaranteed decrease in the targets ability to hurt you and resist being hurt by you.
As for the target of this spell I'd personally drop it on the front liners before the rogues and casters. Yes they have a better fort save but they have the lower Dex scores too.
Worst case they make their first save and get a -2 to hit, damage and ALL SAVES making them that less likely to save again next round while reducing the damage they do to you or your minions.
I actually hope the target makes at least one save. That -2 on top of the Dex damage is just just the cherry on top of this nasty, nasty spell.
Once they DO start failing this save (they best normal save an 8th level fighter can have is about a +9 for a 55% chance of failing, no one is going to make 9 consecutive saves at that difficulty) they will be completely removed as a threat for that round, will quickly start failing every reflex save you throw at them (hello create pit spell), their AC drops making it easier for you & your minions to maul them, and if they fail 5 of these saves they are immediately dropped unconscious.
I love this spell, and all of your move and touch issues are immaterial, get a cheap Rod of Reach spell and get to work.
edit: @Son of the Veterinarian, No they are not immune from this spell. It's not a disease or poison it's a physical parasite chewing on them which is outside the immunity granted by those class features.
[...]Enervation [...]
The minimum it can do is absolutely nothing.
[...]Fleshworm Infestation [...]
The absolute minimum however is a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks for the duration of the fight.
I think you need to read the spell descriptions again. There is no save vs. enervation.
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Someone mentioned the need for Reach spell metamagic AND spectral hand. Spectral Hand turns your touch spells into Medium range. There is rarely a need for a Necromancer to ever use a Reach metamagic effect with Spectral Hand up.
Also, note that SPectral Hand adds +2 to touch attacks, so your Necromancer will have a higher chance to land that infestation.
Reach spell is good for higher level spells, as Spectral Hand is limited to 4th level and lower (although not applicable with the spells discussed here).
Enervation, despite being nasty and negative energy influenced, is not an evil spell. Minimum effect is indeed 1 negative level, since there's no saving throw.
Also, Mathwei is also missing some key factors in the effects of enervation. One is likely a typo in that attack rolls are lowered as well. However, another important factor is that level-dependent effects are lowered: spellcasting damage/durations/etc are down, uncanny dodge levels are lowered, etc.
Lastly.. death if you get a couple good shots in (two max rolls of enervation kills an 8th level character). Hitpoints and Dex can be healed (Dex being harder in combat with a 3 round casting time on lesser restoration), but "dead if negative levels = level" is hard to get through, and hard to respond to at only 8th level.
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[...]Enervation [...]
The minimum it can do is absolutely nothing.I think you need to read the spell descriptions again. There is no save vs. enervation.[...]Fleshworm Infestation [...]
The absolute minimum however is a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks for the duration of the fight.
Never said anything about a save, you can MISS your ranged touch attack which wastes the spell.
Also Enervation doesn't work on Undead, Constructs or anything healed by Negative Energy.
Reach spell is good for higher level spells, as Spectral Hand is limited to 4th level and lower (although not applicable with the spells discussed here).
Enervation, despite being nasty and negative energy influenced, is not an evil spell. Minimum effect is indeed 1 negative level, since there's no saving throw.
Also, Mathwei is also missing some key factors in the effects of enervation. One is likely a typo in that attack rolls are lowered as well. However, another important factor is that level-dependent effects are lowered: spellcasting damage/durations/etc are down, uncanny dodge levels are lowered, etc.
Lastly.. death if you get a couple good shots in (two max rolls of enervation kills an 8th level character). Hitpoints and Dex can be healed (Dex being harder in combat with a 3 round casting time on lesser restoration), but "dead if negative levels = level" is hard to get through, and hard to respond to at only 8th level.
So you are comparing 2+ castings of Enervation vs 1 casting of Fleshworm Infestation and saying it's more powerful? Yes, I'd agree with that but it's irrelevant.
Enervation is a great spell for dropping casters/healers/skill monkeys. Fleshworm is a great spell for disabling front liners and archers.
Pick your target for each based on what you want to do.
Never said anything about a save, you can MISS your ranged touch attack which wastes the spell.
And that is not the case with fleshworm infestation?
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And that is not the case with fleshworm infestation?
Never said anything about a save, you can MISS your ranged touch attack which wastes the spell.
Nope, it's a regular touch spell, if you miss your touch attack you do not lose the charge (unless you touch something else or cast a different spell). You can re-try to touch the target with the same spell for an hour if you want to. More efficient that way.
Uh, yeah. If your measuring stick of "no effect" is missing, then fleshworm infestation suffers the same problem.
And enervation is ranged right out of the box, easier to get going (no rods or spectral hand combinations needed). It can be cast on the fly, during a surprise, etc, with more immediate response. And without an 11k item.
So you are comparing 2+ castings of Enervation vs 1 casting of Fleshworm Infestation and saying it's more powerful? Yes, I'd agree with that but it's irrelevant.
Two enervations is 2 rounds of combat.
The damage from fleshworm infestation is over the course of 7+ rounds. Meaning, you'll only likely get the benefit of one casting in a combat.Enervations more easily allow for multiple castings. You have the option of casting it twice, back to back. And it can lead to "outright death" that ignores hitpoint totals.
All I'm saying is that this is something you need to take into account when comparing the spells. You didn't account for these factors at all.
I'm not saying that fleshworm isn't decent, and it certainly has it's place. Staggered condition is nothing to sneeze at.
However, Enervation is a baseline top end 4th level spell, similar to how Magic Missile is a baseline top end 1st level spell. Fleshworm Infestation has big shoes to fill.
Nope, it's a regular touch spell, if you miss your touch attack you do not lose the charge (unless you touch something else or cast a different spell). You can re-try to touch the target with the same spell for an hour if you want to. More efficient that way.
That may be true, but the guy who missed with his enervation ray can simply cast another spell next round.
And the caster with fleshworm infestation may miss every round, who knows? So your comparison was at least a little bit off.
Either way, any enemy caster that goes into melee with my group probably would not survive till next round....
EDIT:
Anyone here played RotR? There is one big bad with a wand of enervation. Nasty.
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Uh, yeah. If your measuring stick of "no effect" is missing, then fleshworm infestation suffers the same problem.
And enervation is ranged right out of the box, easier to get going (no rods or spectral hand combinations needed). It can be cast on the fly, during a surprise, etc, with more immediate response. And without an 11k item.
So you are comparing 2+ castings of Enervation vs 1 casting of Fleshworm Infestation and saying it's more powerful? Yes, I'd agree with that but it's irrelevant.Two enervations is 2 rounds of combat.
The damage from fleshworm infestation is over the course of 7+ rounds. Meaning, you'll only likely get the benefit of one casting in a combat.Enervations more easily allow for multiple castings. You have the option of casting it twice, back to back. And it can lead to "outright death" that ignores hitpoint totals.
All I'm saying is that this is something you need to take into account when comparing the spells. You didn't account for these factors at all.
I'm not saying that fleshworm isn't decent, and it certainly has it's place. Staggered condition is nothing to sneeze at.
However, Enervation is a baseline top end 4th level spell, similar to how Magic Missile is a baseline top end 1st level spell. Fleshworm Infestation has big shoes to fill.
Enervation is an amazing anti-caster/skill monkey spell. Probably the best there is at it's level. Not my first choice when going against a hard hitting melee'er in my face though. Not even my second choice really.
When that raging Barbarian is hauling down on me with his Greataxe of Doom I want something that will take him out of this fight and Enervation ain't it. Besides burning TWO spell slots (high level ones too) and risking 4 AoO's from that greataxe wielding monster (casting in melee and ranged attack in melee) the actual effect is impossible to predict. Does he get a -2 to hit & lose 10 hit points (A likely possibility you are only rolling D4's here)?
My Fleshworm does that at a minimum and unlike Enervation it keeps forcing that check for a nastier effect for the rest of the fight. 1 Spell on him and I'm done casting at that guy (have the familiar hit him with a wand of ill omen after that) so can I deal with bigger threats now. No, I'm a prepared caster, I need the biggest bang for my buck every time and against the melee types it's not enervation.
As for the rod, if you don't want to take the same advantage that the guy coming to kill you has (spend your cash on gear to help you win) thats up to you. I'll see you at your funeral.
I'd recommend using PROJECT IMAGE in conjunction with the spell. Run up and tag a bunch of the party with them being wholly unable to counter with anything short of a dispel magic.