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Its widely regarded that the summoner is overpowered.
My analysis using excel sheets (while not exhaustive) showed that an even an eidolon only using natural weapons outdamages a thfer versus most ACs if the enemy has up to DR 7. All while outdoing him in AC, with DR 5/(pick good evil lawful or chaotic), and fly 30.
Two thoughts:
1. Has anyone already attempted to rebalance the summoner to make sure its competitive while not being better than the alternatives?
2. Can it be done (can we get some number crunchers to input suggestions here?) (Its important that we dont just make a blind shot at nerfing it, and we actually make sure we nerf it enough, and not go too far.)
For now lets stick to the base and not do the archetypes just yet. Fixing the summoner will likely fix the Synthesist, and Broodmaster needs a boost.
What do you guys think?
I'm thinking the first thing needed would be to determine just how overpowered it is, and where.
the obvious parallel is druid, but also, a fighter and a bard.
Better to have players focus on the eidolon than to use the summons!
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Better to have players focus on the eidolon than to use the summons!
lol. Well, I'm proposing a complete rebalance, so yeah, the summons will need to get looked at too.
But don't wizards make better summoners anyways, if youre not focused on the eidolons?
This feat makes Wizards the best summoners actually.
Source Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide 11You have passed the grueling Test of Summoning and graduated from the Acadamae.
Prerequisites: Specialist wizard level 1st, cannot have conjuration as a forbidden school, Korvosa affinity.
Benefit: Whenever you cast a prepared arcane spell from the conjuration (summoning) school that takes longer than a standard action to cast, reduce the casting time by one round (to a minimum casting time of one standard action). Casting a spell in this way is taxing and requires a Fortitude save (DC 15 + spell level) to resist becoming fatigued.
So now the wizard has standard action summoning.
The Summoner is the Permanent Pet Class.
For your straight up Hordes of Summons build, I'd suggest wizard, and if necessary PrC into Thaumaturgist or Malconvoker (assuming those things are allowed)
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Better to have players focus on the eidolon than to use the summons!lol. Well, I'm proposing a complete rebalance, so yeah, the summons will need to get looked at too.
But don't wizards make better summoners anyways, if youre not focused on the eidolons?
This feat makes Wizards the best summoners actually.
Source Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide 11You have passed the grueling Test of Summoning and graduated from the Acadamae.
Prerequisites: Specialist wizard level 1st, cannot have conjuration as a forbidden school, Korvosa affinity.
Benefit: Whenever you cast a prepared arcane spell from the conjuration (summoning) school that takes longer than a standard action to cast, reduce the casting time by one round (to a minimum casting time of one standard action). Casting a spell in this way is taxing and requires a Fortitude save (DC 15 + spell level) to resist becoming fatigued.
So now the wizard has standard action summoning.
The Summoner is the Permanent Pet Class.
For your straight up Hordes of Summons build, I'd suggest wizard, and if necessary PrC into Thaumaturgist or Malconvoker (assuming those things are allowed)
Summoners already can summon as a standard action, summon without using up spell slots, and their summons last for 1 minute/level instead of 1 round/level.
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Summoners already can summon as a standard action, summon without using up spell slots, and their summons last for 1 minute/level instead of 1 round/level.
Summoners can only have one summon spell active at a time, whereas a wizard can stagger them, and have 5 or 6 summon monster spells active simultaneously, and each one could be providing several summons.
and Summoners can`t use their summon class abilities when their big class feature (Eidolons) are active.
And they don't risk being fatigued to do it.
Seriously, a master summoner at level 1 can easily have 9 summon monster SLAs per day, plus an eidolon on the field.
At level 3, that's on average 18 riding dogs they can summon per day.
At level 5 with superior summoning, that's an average of 40.5 riding dogs =/
I'm actually happy the eidolon [i]can[/b] be made to be so powerful, since then there's only one extra body on the field, not 40.
Don't allow pounce, and many of the problems with an Eidolon magically disappear. Not all, but a fair number.
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And they don't risk being fatigued to do it.
Seriously, a master summoner at level 1 can easily have 9 summon monster SLAs per day, plus an eidolon on the field.
At level 3, that's on average 18 riding dogs they can summon per day.
At level 5 with superior summoning, that's an average of 40.5 riding dogs =/
I'm actually happy the eidolon [i]can[/b] be made to be so powerful, since then there's only one extra body on the field, not 40.
Don't allow pounce, and many of the problems with an Eidolon magically disappear. Not all, but a fair number.
Hmm. just read master summoner for the first time. Pretty beastly.
But this thread has become derailed, since its not about the archetypes at the moment, but the base class. lol.
Sooo...
I can understand the argument that at least then there is only one extra body on the field, but should the Eidolon be outclassing entire characters of the summoner`s level? That seems a bit much to me. Matching an entire character? Maybe.
But a summoner (not master summoner) seems to be a Bard + Improved Fighter. Am I so wrong?
And they don't risk being fatigued to do it.
Seriously, a master summoner at level 1 can easily have 9 summon monster SLAs per day, plus an eidolon on the field.
At level 3, that's on average 18 riding dogs they can summon per day.
At level 5 with superior summoning, that's an average of 40.5 riding dogs =/
I'm actually happy the eidolon [i]can[/b] be made to be so powerful, since then there's only one extra body on the field, not 40.
Don't allow pounce, and many of the problems with an Eidolon magically disappear. Not all, but a fair number.
Riding Dogs were errata'd out of the SM1 list 2009...they are replaced with plain pooches...
I had a Summoner in my RotRL game.
Low levels he was indeed tough but then leveled out, it wasn't as scary as we thought it would be. In the end the Summoner used his summon SLA as it was more versatile than his Eidolon.
Observations:
You can build a killing machine Eidolon but that's all it can do. Summoning is more versatile with the buddy as a back up fighter.
The Summoner is the weak link, bash him and problem solved.
Sharing slots for magic items, the Summoner either uses those ring slots, etc for himself or Eidolon not both. That's a little weakness there.
I have seen a lot of people say the Eidolon is overpowered but 90% of the time its because there is build errors.
Overall I didn't find the Summoner dominating the table but an interesting class.
Maybe not what you are looking for but I didn't find the class OTT, it was played from LVL 1 to 12.... Until the encounter with a Necklace of Fireballs and the worse saves I have ever seen from the squishy Summoner.
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Here are a few thoughts I had, though I definitely appreciate the input:
You can build a killing machine Eidolon but that's all it can do. Summoning is more versatile with the buddy as a back up fighter.
You can rebuild the eidolon 1/day. Its a 4th level spell, so before you can cast it proper, you can still use a wand. If I dont need the eidolon to be a butcher today, I can swap out his abilities, and swap them back tomorrow.
The Summoner is the weak link, bash him and problem solved.
Thats true for the base summoner at least (But I figure I'll worry about archetypes in another thread, later.)
Sharing slots for magic items, the Summoner either uses those ring slots, etc for himself or Eidolon not both. That's a little weakness there.
It stops him from benefitting from 2 characters worth of magic items, to be sure. Not sure I'd call it a weakness.
I have seen a lot of people say the Eidolon is overpowered but 90% of the time its because there is build errors.
Overall I didn't find the Summoner dominating the table but an interesting class.
Maybe not what you are looking for but I didn't find the class OTT, it was played from LVL 1 to 12.... Until the encounter with a Necklace of Fireballs and the worse saves I have ever seen from the squishy Summoner.
I dont think the Eidolon is substantially better in any one area. I just compared it to a fighter build and the eidolon was a little bit better at dpr, with higher AC, and DR 5, and fly. If I didnt want fly, thats DR 10. I dunno.
Maybe its worth investigating further.
But youre right, if its overpowered, I'm not sure how overpowered it is, and as you mentioned, the summoner himself is squishy in the nonarchetyped version.
Sharing slots for magic items, the Summoner either uses those ring slots, etc for himself or Eidolon not both. That's a little weakness there.It stops him from benefitting from 2 characters worth of magic items, to be sure. Not sure I'd call it a weakness.
Well the Summoner in my game the summoner failed his saves because his Eidolon was using the shoulder slot for the Cloak of Resistance which would have saved him...crispy Summoner.
To be fair to the player he wasn't a d**k.
He had the courtesy to have the stats for all his SLA summons printed at hand so there was no flipping though books and stuff slowing the game down.
Personally I think a well handled Wild Shaping Druid and his companion is as scary or scarier....
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Summoner is actually improved bards (key spells "on level") + improved fighter. Or invincible caster machine of death.
I agree focusing on the summons is good, but only because of the spell summon eidilon. That is a minutes-per-level summon spell that summons your Eidilon with +4 Str / Con. So round 1 begin casting, round 2 drop Eidilon and a large group of beasts all into play, then have them stick around for minutes / level (several fights in a dungeon setting). Otherwise I disagree with most assessments. Until about 9 (when you drop out d4+2 lantern archons) the Eidilon generally outdoes anything from a standard summon; and even after he does more than an on-level summon.
As to fix, he'd be balanced (even good) support without the Eidilon, but that would take away the coolest part of the class.
Can you post the eidolon you used for this comparison?
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Summoners start out slightly stronger when compared to other classes, but as the levels goes up, they balance out.
As pointed out above the summoner is the weak-link. Take him/her out and *Poof! goes the Eidolon.
This is unlike Druids, Rangers or Animal domain Clerics, whose pets stick around even if their master does down.
The sharing of magical item slots is not to be look down upon.
In most games, magical items get more common and more important as the game does on. Lacking a +1 Cloak of Resistance might not seem much now... but when everyone is wearing a +3 version and you are not... you are screaming for monsters to get you.
The item limit is by itself made to balance the class. Its a weakness by itself.
As it stands I don't think the Default Summoner is broken. It is a little stronger, but not in a game breaking way.
Calculating its power using its Damage per Round potential is too one-sided. Its like complaining why the barbarian can hit 24 Str at level 1 and 1 hit KO a CR1-2 boss.
One more thing I remembered was that the Summoner's SLA was nerfed in the play-test, it used to able to summon monsters and have the Eidolon.
If anything its the Archetypes for the Summoner that needs be unbalanced. Synthesist can easily be a 1 person power-house with unbalanced stats.
And the Master Summoner can get a ton of expendable monsters out to act as meat shields/scouts/slaves(lol) for a party.
Can you post the eidolon you used for this comparison?
Yea I'd like to see this also. In my experience the summoner is widely regarded as the class most likely to have an error in their creation that leads them to be stupid overpowered. There have been at least a dozen 'omg the summoner is broken' threads only to come to the conclusion that the eidolon in question was actually not built according to the rules layed out in the APG.
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Can you post the eidolon you used for this comparison?Yea I'd like to see this also. In my experience the summoner is widely regarded as the class most likely to have an error in their creation that leads them to be stupid overpowered. There have been at least a dozen 'omg the summoner is broken' threads only to come to the conclusion that the eidolon in question was actually not built according to the rules layed out in the APG.
+1
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What level would you like to play at Norse?
Here's my 5th level Eidilon for PFS (Pikazu). I am a half elf (so +1 evolution point at this level), but do NOT have the feat to give him improved points (my feats are all the augment / superior summons line):
Str: 23 Int: 7 Wis: 10 Dex: 14 Con: 13 Chr: 10
HP: 31
AC: 16 (Usually 20 from extended Mage armor)
Skills (Maxed): Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception (1 rank): Climb, swim, intimidate (2)
Evolutions: Electric, Bite, Trip (Bite), Reach (Bite), Slam, Str +2
Magic Items Assigned: +2 Str Belt, +1 Amulet of Mighty Fist, +1 Cloak of Resistance
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Toughness
Attacks (+11) d8+d6+7 / d6+d6+7 (+trip CMB +11) / d4+d6+7 (x2)
Claws on feet (we can discuss intent later, but by RAW this is legal)
Summoner tactics: The summoner is a non-combatant mostly; he does have a net to throw against single opponents (proficient as half-elf), but otherwise stays back and buffs / uses wands (wands bought with prestige points + high UMD if necessary).
In travel, the Eidilon starts out so he can take advantage of his trip reach and perception. He stays near the summoner, and has a 4-hour downtime on his 2 alloted extended Mage armors daily (at camp time).
When going into a populated dungeon area, he is summoned via Summon Eidilon (extended by wand). In these cases, Str and Con are +4 above. I can then take advantage of massing the battlefield with summons (currently d4+2 riding dogs). The Eidilon still outpaces said dogs, but either far outpace anyone I've adventures with
Often Eidilon gets Enlarged during combat, and his damage really goes through roof. The share spell aspect makes him very powerful.
While his AC is not as high as many, I've only had him downed in combat once; his trip / reflexes has proven a better defense in general than AC ever could. I will eventually be investing in the improved natural armor of course, but that will be later. At 7 I am getting the feat that will let him stick should someone drop me with a spell (as this has happened before). I try to play keep away generally, but some GMs do "hone in on the summoner" :).
So the summoner literally only has a net? Your eidolon is carrying 10k worth of magic items on a fifth level character. WBL for that level is 10.5k. So you are almost literally leaving nothing for the summoner. If you were playing at my table he would be down every session and probably dead after a few.
And in regards to your eidolon, what is it's base form? That isnt clear from what you wrote, i presume bipedal?
Edit:
So assuming its bipedal, at 5th levle you have 8 evolution points +1 for the half elf favored class bonus of 1/4 evolution points. You have the evolutions, energy attack (2), bite (1), trip (2), Reach (1), Slam (1), Ability Increase (2), and claws (1) for a total of 10 evolution points.
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Well, net, chain shirt, and wands. This is a PFS character, so he can use prestige awards for wands, and I have played up a little (the shirt is mithril, and I have a lesser wand of extend, so guess I am 3500 above suggested wealth). If I start getting targeted I tend to run out of the room, and have respectable HP etc; in general I'm not that conspicuous; though I can understand smart GMs playing "target the summoner". Having beefy party members helps; I can make myself hard to hit.
I'll eventually have invisible for that situation, but currently do not. Greedy I know, but haste, Summon Eidilon, and EvolutIon surge took priority. But as stated it hasn't been an awful problem; adding 1 or 2 points to my AC isn't going to make me less of a target, and I get a resistance bonus to saves when in 10 of my Eidilon (saves are pretty decent anyway; 12 Wis 14 Dex / Con, at least as high as can be expected. Dumped strength (Str 7 Int 12 Wis 12 Dex 14 Con 14 Chr 18-type).
Well, net, chain shirt, and wands. This is a PFS character, so he can use prestige awards for wands, and I have played up a little (the shirt is mithril, and I have a lesser wand of extend, so guess I am 3500 above suggested wealth). If I start getting targeted I tend to run out of the room, and have respectable HP etc; in general I'm not that conspicuous; though I can understand smart GMs playing "target the summoner". Having beefy party members helps; I can make myself hard to hit.
It isnt a matter of 'targetting the summoner' it is a matter of my encounters target everyone. And the that means a character who has virtually no defensive items to cover weaknesses will have alot of difficulty. Add to that the fact that your character is already a third above wbl, yes your eidolon is a beast. But it is at the expense of your summoners defensive capabilities AND is above the wealth level guidelines in a game where wealth = power.
If I outfit a 5th level fighter with 14000gp of gear he will also seem like a power house, because he will be.
Claws on feet (we can discuss intent later, but by RAW this is legal)
-Ok, so you're using rules lawyering cheese. That's not how you do a comparison. Raw its not legal, raw its not illegal. Its a DM may i situation and not what you use for a comparison.
I believe Kol is right, your evolutions are off... the usual reason summoners seem overpowered.
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Well, the extent of gain is the lesser metamagic rod, which is very nice on travel (saves having to combat-buff mage armor).
If you want, do comparison with -2 Str, a gore attack, and +2 AC (if you dislike the "claw on feat" setup). So same attacks, -1 to hit / damage each. Still compares favorably, and now has 22 AC.
The summoner is in the middle, so will generally be the least presented target. Any archery against him will be at -4 for cover, so he'll have a respectable 22 AC. He has a good will save, and at the start of combat +2 on top of that (effective cloak of resistance +2). If I was to outfit just him, he'd have +2 Chr +2 AC and the lesser metamagic wand; but that wouldn't shore up weaknesses a ton (especially relative to improving the eidilon). Ultimately like most casters I make it as difficult as possible to engage me on combat; the Eidilon and his trip go a long way with that, after that AC: 18 (at start of combat) and 38 HP is better than many at this level. Then I just buff and get as far away from baddies as possible. It's effective; I am far from the most vulnerable character at my level.
The Eidilon shield bonus / protection bonus actually goes a long way to stifle my weaknesses without investment. I doubt my AC ever goes up. What weakness should I shore up that isn't used as "bettering combat prowess"?
13K fighter would just have 1 higher AC or +1 to saves. Nice, but hardly gamebreaking, and he still won't keep up with the Eidilon on any damage except closing round.
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So assuming its bipedal, at 5th levle you have 8 evolution points +1 for the half elf favored class bonus of 1/4 evolution points. You have the evolutions, energy attack (2), bite (1), trip (2), Reach (1), Slam (1), Ability Increase (2), and claws (1) for a total of 10 evolution points.
Bipeds start with claws.
Biped
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (bad), Will (good); Attack 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs).
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They do; but it's dubious whether they should require them on the hands or not. By the writeup (and by RAW) there is nothing stopping you from declaring those claws on their feet limbs, then using the hands for a slam.
In fact, the better reapproach to the character would be to lose slam, and replace it with claws (legs). This would only change 1 attack from d8 to d4 and you'd maintain the +2 strength. You lose a little damage on an attack, but I like the bite/reach/trip more than true maximizing damage.
True max may look like this:
Claw (feet), Improved Damage (Claw), Elelectric, Improved Natural Amor (*2), Reach (Claws), Improved Strength. This guy would have weapon focus (claws)
Would be d6+d6+7 *4, but would lose the (highly effective) free trip (which I like mostly because it protects the summoner). But he'd be AC 22 / 26.
Shield ally: I start within 10 (note reach evolution), generally within 5. You are right I sometimes lose that bonus later, but that's only if I find total cover somewhere; otherwise I keep the Eidilon as a wedge between me and enemies (if it is just "enemy" I tend to toss my net).
So assuming its bipedal, at 5th levle you have 8 evolution points +1 for the half elf favored class bonus of 1/4 evolution points. You have the evolutions, energy attack (2), bite (1), trip (2), Reach (1), Slam (1), Ability Increase (2), and claws (1) for a total of 10 evolution points.Bipeds start with claws.
Biped
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (bad), Will (good); Attack 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs).
Ah ok i see where my confusion was, and now i understand the cheese, of puting the claws on the feet (obviously not as intended) in order to gain the slam attack on the arms. Fair enough.
Well, the extent of gain is the lesser metamagic rod, which is very nice on travel (saves having to combat-buff mage armor).
If you want, do comparison with -2 Str, a gore attack, and +2 AC (if you dislike the "claw on feat" setup). So same attacks, -1 to hit / damage each. Still compares favorably, and now has 22 AC.
The summoner is in the middle, so will generally be the least presented target. Any archery against him will be at -4 for cover, so he'll have a respectable 22 AC. He has a good will save, and at the start of combat +2 on top of that (effective cloak of resistance +2). If I was to outfit just him, he'd have +2 Chr +2 AC and the lesser metamagic wand; but that wouldn't shore up weaknesses a ton (especially relative to improving the eidilon). Ultimately like most casters I make it as difficult as possible to engage me on combat; the Eidilon and his trip go a long way with that, after that AC: 18 (at start of combat) and 38 HP is better than many at this level. Then I just buff and get as far away from baddies as possible. It's effective; I am far from the most vulnerable character at my level.
The Eidilon shield bonus / protection bonus actually goes a long way to stifle my weaknesses without investment. I doubt my AC ever goes up. What weakness should I shore up that isn't used as "bettering combat prowess"?
13K fighter would just have 1 higher AC or +1 to saves. Nice, but hardly gamebreaking, and he still won't keep up with the Eidilon on any damage except closing round.
Is there a pfs method for giving out an eidolons hp? (I admit I am not familiar with pfs rules) because your eidolons hp seem fairly high since they dont get full HD at first level (not being a PC).
"To determine a creature's hit points, roll the dice indicated by its Hit Dice. A creature gains maximum hit points if its first Hit Die roll is for a character class level. Creatures whose first Hit Die comes from an NPC class or from his race roll their first Hit Die normally."
The summoner gets full hd at first level, the eidolon does not.
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True max may look like this:Claw (feet), Improved Damage (Claw), Elelectric, Improved Natural Amor (*2), Reach (Claws), Improved Strength. This guy would have weapon focus (claws)
So you're making two reach attacks every round with your feat on a biped?
I'm not going to argue RAW (which needs a FAQ blocking the use of foot claws on non-quad eidolons), but I would really like to see a diagram of how this is supposed to work.
Toughness feat is listed.
D10 is 5.5, +1 (toughness) +1 (Con) = 7.5 per HD. 7.5*4 = 30. I was off by 1; you are correct. I do not have the sheet in front of me.
Not a problem, I am just trying to go through what is making this eidolon particularly strong.
I do believe that PFS not withstanding any dm who has knowledge of the summoner playtest wouldnt let the feet claws stand. And while PFS is nice, I believe it is not what should be used as the standard for the game. The rules are written with the intention that a dm stand as arbiter and interpreter. The game is adapated for organized play, not written for it(that is why there are whole separate products with society play guidelines). I am confident few reasonable dms would allow such a thing.
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Can you post the eidolon you used for this comparison?
Dont have the sheet with me, but here's what I gave him:
Level 12.
16 EP.
Large Size (4)
DR 5/Lawful (3)
Energy Attack: 1d6 electric. (2)
Fly 30 (2)
Natural Attacks: Bite, Wing Buffet (2)
Improved Damage (Bite, claw, Wing Buffet (3)
It was not a very special build.
The default large build gives: 30AC, ~85.5hp.
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Well, again if it makes you feel better make the d8 a d4 for argument purposes. 2 points on 1 attack doesn't change the guy much.
And this guy doesn't even get to take advantage of 8. The Eidilon will be large (an absurd +8 Str, for 30 if you put your bump in Str like I did above), and get reach on all attacks. Meanwhile the summoner can afford a lesser enlarge wand (3K) and toss out enlarged Black Tentacles (only the summoner has a version of this spel that qualifies for lesser metamagic). And the weakness of the eidolon dismissing if the summoner drops will be gone.
The druid's animal companion compares to a degree; but doesn't get low level spells like Enlarge person and the stupidly flexible evolution surge to enhance him. 2nd level spell can grant energy immunity, flight, or tremorsense. Not to say I don't think Druids aren't the 2nd most powerful characters in the game; they are amazing.
The level I picked is my current one, but actually a fairly weak level for the Summoner; he does "just get better".
The whole intent here is to prove the Summoner (and his "armor of invincibility caster" brother, the Synthasist) need a rebalance. I know my math; I've seen it in action. The summoner and his buddy really are a total package; buffing and casting all in one.
Once again, if you eliminated the Eidilon, the summoner would still be very, very good. That is one balance, but probably not as flavorful as other balance thoughts.
After this example do people still feel the summoner is "fine" on game balance?
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Personally I think a well handled Wild Shaping Druid and his companion is as scary or scarier....I ban natural spell. Just saying. lol.*rolls eyes*
The fact that you ban NS after Pathfinder nerfed wildshape tells a lot about how you approach the whole subject of balance.
Actually. Come to think of it, the only time I've seen a druid in PF, the GM allowed 3.5 wildshape.
"No NS" has been my policy since 3.5, but it hasn't come up since I started GMing pathfinder, so I have to admit, I haven't seen a druid in play in straight PF. (without giving the PF druid 3.5 wildshape, and that was another GM)
the way I approach balance is more of a "Hmm. that looks problematic. Let me look into it.
Hey /tg/ What are the effects of X like in Play?
hey /Paizo/ What are the effects of X like in Play?
Hey /Enworld or RPG.net/ What are the effects of X like in Play?"
And while I wait for responses I open excel and try to come up with a way to figure it out using math and probability and such.
Well, again if it makes you feel better make the d8 a d4 for argument purposes. 2 points on 1 attack doesn't change the guy much.
And this guy doesn't even get to take advantage of 8. The Eidilon will be large (an absurd +8 Str, for 30 if you put your bump in Str like I did above), and get reach on all attacks. Meanwhile the summoner can afford a lesser enlarge wand (3K) and toss out enlarged Black Tentacles (only the summoner has a version of this spel that qualifies for lesser metamagic). And the weakness of the eidolon dismissing if the summoner drops will be gone.
The druid's animal companion compares to a degree; but doesn't get low level spells like Enlarge person and the stupidly flexible evolution surge to enhance him. 2nd level spell can grant energy immunity, flight, or tremorsense. Not to say I don't think Druids aren't the 2nd most powerful characters in the game; they are amazing.
The level I picked is my current one, but actually a fairly weak level for the Summoner; he does "just get better".
The whole intent here is to prove the Summoner (and his "armor of invincibility caster" brother, the Synthasist) need a rebalance. I know my math; I've seen it in action. The summoner and his buddy really are a total package; buffing and casting all in one.
Once again, if you eliminated the Eidilon, the summoner would still be very, very good. That is one balance, but probably not as flavorful as other balance thoughts.
After this example do people still feel the summoner is "fine" on game balance?
Yes.
Its comparable to a melee focussed wildshaping druid and its animal companion.BTW where are you getting +8 to strength from enlarge?
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After this example do people still feel the summoner is "fine" on game balance?
Fine is a relative term. Do I think the summoner is powerful? Yes. Do I think it is such to the point of being unmanagable? No. I think it is top tier along with the druid. A wildshapping druid with a big cat companion is just as deadly by the time the druid can wild shape.
The issue is the summoner (the eidolon) is the easiest class to optimize. The choices to make it the 'best' are obvious. Its like a class with the training wheels on. A highly optimized archer fighter will out damage it by level 6, and the druid has similar offensive power with alot more options in terms of utility in it's spells and wild shape. But things like bigger strong more attacks are far easier to grasp then most cases for optimization. So we have people who normally may or may not optimize walking around with highly optimized eidolons.
The summoner doesnt need a rebalance, it needs a redesign. The eidolon is a little too much of a blank slate. The class would be perfectly balanced if you just put in a restriction that some portion (a third or a fourth) of evolution points need to be spent on non-combat evolutions. The intended direction of the class was to allow enough points so the eidolon could be good at combat but do other stuff too, but people are drawn to the claws, size increases and energy attacks and just take those.
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I stepped up; let's see the melee focused Druid and his animal companion. We can do a side-by-side. I'll use level 8, where the druid's wildshape is strong, and so I can show the large compare
The evolution large grants +8 Str, +4 Con, +2 natural armor, reach (for bipeds), per the text. It also makes their attacks do large damage.
Same Eidilon, @8
Str: 30 Int: 7 Wis: 10 Dex: 19 Con: 17 Chr: 10
Evolutions (13 Pts): Claws, Bite, Trip (Bite), Improved Dex (2) Reach (Bite), Improve Damage (Claws), Natural Armor (2), Bite 1.5 damage
Cloak of resist is +2 now, and is assigned +1 protect ring.
AC: 20 (base) + 4 (Dex) + 4 (Improved) + 1 (ring) -1 size = 28
HP: 9.5 * 8 = 76
5 AOOs, 15 foot reach (10 on claws) Once / day can be "pounced" around corners / friends (maker's call ftw). New feat: Power Attack
Attack: +6 BAB +10 Str +1 Magic = 17 -2 PA = Damage: d8 + 14 + d6 (+5 extra bite, and bite trips with CMB +20).
Summoner hides a lot, hasted occasionally, and drops a widen black tentacles if he thinks the combat is worth it. Sometimes he makes the eidilon huge, because it's fun and adds 4.5 damage to each attack. Otherwise he hides and eats cookies. Even if he falls the Eidilon fights on noe.
Is there a pfs method for giving out an eidolons hp?
They get average HP in PFS, just like animal companions. Unless this has changed in the last round of updates.
Quick note, he has 4 AoOs a round, not 5. It's not 1 + mDex, it's mDex if greater than 1.
Large - 4
Reach - 1
Dex twice - 4
Claws (1) - free
limbs (arms) - free
limbs (legs) - free
Bite - 2 (you don't have a bite attack, so you need to take it twice to get 1.5 to it)
Trip - 2
Improved Damage - 1
Natural Armor (2) - 2
Total: 4+1+4+2+2+3 = 16 points, unless I'm missing something.
If you took Dex only once, you'd have 12 + 3 + 1 (ability increase from level?) + 2 - 2 = 16, not 19. If you took it twice, you'd have 18 dex, not 19. So either way, that's a slight mistake. If you didn't put the 5th level increase into Dex, then it'd be either 15 or 17.
I guess if you took bite only once (and not get the 1.5 of mStr), and dex only once, you'd be right on. Large would not allow for 1.5.
The class would be perfectly balanced if you just put in a restriction that some portion (a third or a fourth) of evolution points need to be spent on non-combat evolutions.How many evolutions are there that are "non-combat" evolutions though?
skilled, fly, climb, gills, mount, tremirsense, blindsense, burrow, frightful presense, web, blindsight, basic magic, lowlight vision, unnatural aura, keen scent, minor magic, undead appearance, major magic, see in darkness, dimension door, incorporeal form, lifesense, no breath, ultimate magic.
The class would be perfectly balanced if you just put in a restriction that some portion (a third or a fourth) of evolution points need to be spent on non-combat evolutions.How many evolutions are there that are "non-combat" evolutions though?
From just the AGP
Climb,gills,mount,pull,push,scent,skilled,swim,tail,Ability Increase,flight,immunity,Tremorsense ,blindsense, burrow, blindsight, fasting, and large
so 19
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Change suggestions:
*when going from 3.0 to 3.5, Righteous Might went from granting +8 Str and +4 Con to +4 Str and +2 Con. It is still considered a great spell. Do the same to "Large" evolution. Everyone would still take it.
*Lower number of legal attacks by 1, effective @ level 1. 2 attacks is fine @ 1.
*Somehow make spells that are a level count that way. The lesser metamagic rods do things they probably shouldn't @ low levels.
*Change the name of Summon Eidilon to not include the word "summon", thereby stopping cheesemonkeys like me from taking an already powerful creature and giving him +4 Str +4 Con
*Make the cost of Taking the same evolution twice go up by 1 per time taken. No more super claw monkeys with multiple improved natural armors and +4 Dex
*Rewrite the Synthasist to keep his own physical scores. They did this to Druids in conversion to Pathfinder to prevent this type of physical dump Druid; why not the summoner as well?
The class would still be great after all of this, and closer to "in balance" with the above-mentioned Druid, and still a top-tier class
Change suggestions:
*Change the name of Summon Eidilon to not include the word "summon", thereby stopping cheesemonkeys like me from taking an already powerful creature and giving him +4 Str +4 Con
I assume Augment Summoning...which doesn't work with the Eidolon...
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*Lower number of legal attacks by 1, effective @ level 1. 2 attacks is fine @ 1.
Yes, the eidolon comes out the gate very strong, but its natuaral attacks don't always scale well compared to others.
Ultimately, the Eidolon receives the same number of natural attacks that anyone using the TWF chain receives: 7. Reduction of strength on the off hand weapon is a non-issue due to double slice
The monks damage / attack increases far more rapidly than an eidolons.
The eidolon won't be able to access special materials to overcome DR
If defense is a factor for your fighter, tack shield mastery onto your list of desired feats. Use your shield as your off hand weapon at full BAB, with full strength bonuses, without losing your AC, while counting your shield enhancement as a weapon enhancement. You even get the benefit of free bull rushes.
No, with Summon Eidilon, the 2nd level spell, it specifically works. Augment summon affects all spells / abilities with the word summon.
You are correct on the base Eidilon ability of the class though.
Have you a reference for that please?
EDIT: "Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell."
Normally the summoned eidolon isn't effected by Augment Summons so I read that as it still isn't effected by it using this spell.
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skilled, fly, climb, gills, mount, tremirsense, blindsense, burrow, frightful presense, web, blindsight, basic magic, lowlight vision, unnatural aura, keen scent, minor magic, undead appearance, major magic, see in darkness, dimension door, incorporeal form, lifesense, no breath, ultimate magic.
Climb,gills,mount,pull,push,scent,skilled,swim,tail,Ability Increase,flight,immunity,Tremorsense ,blindsense, burrow, blindsight, fasting, and large
so 19
Pull/Push(battlefield control), Swim(fights in water, tail(+2 Acrobatics), Ability Score Increase(Str for higher Attack/Damage rolls, Dex for higher Armor Class, Con for more Hit Points), Immunity(ignore a dragon's breath weapon, a fireball, a lightning bolt, a cone of cold, etc), large(how is this not a combat evolution?)
The only one I couldn't find was 'fasting'. If Seeker meant Fast Healing, well...