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Intuitively I want to say yes just because you have to use 2 hands with it.
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Intuitively I want to say yes just because you have to use 2 hands with it.
I would tend to agree, though according to the PFSRD, you only need two hands to load the halfling slingstaff. However, the weapon description also says to treat it as a club for the purposes of melee, making it a simple martial weapon, which could be used two-handed. It would then make sense to me that you could sling with two hands, and get the STR bonus as a result.
Just my 2 cents. :)
Slingstaff counts as a light weapon in melee.
There is a feat for throwing stuff with two hands now from ultimate combat, forgot the name just now. The question is, how fast can you reload then?
Sling Staff, Halfling: Made from a specially designed sling attached to a short club, a halfling sling staff can be used by a proficient wielder to devastating effect. Your Strength modifier applies to damage rolls when you use a halfling sling staff, just as it does for thrown weapons. You can fire, but not load, a halfling sling staff with one hand. Loading a halfling sling staff is a move action that requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity.You can hurl ordinary stones with a halfling sling staff, but stones are not as dense or as round as bullets. Thus, such an attack deals damage as if the weapon were designed for a creature one size category smaller than you and you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls.
A halfling sling staff can be used as a simple weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a club of its size. Halflings treat halfling sling staves as martial weapons.
So, one hand, strength modifier to damage when slinging with it.
In melee, it's a club, a one-handed melee weapon with 10 ft. range. Throwing it, as a club (actually tossing the thing, not slinging bullets or rocks) would count as a regular thrown weapon, just like a club.
Thrown Weapons: The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons).
Again, strength mod to damage.
You could get 1.5x Str by wielding it in melee like a club and using both hands.
The feat Hayato Ken mentioned is Two-Handed Thrower (Combat) which not only grants you 1.5x strength, but lets you throw them with a standard instead of full-round action. Multiple throws at high BAB if you have quickdraw. (Reload doesn't matter for thrown weapons, you're throwing not shooting.)
This would apply to throwing a sling stave (again, tossing the stick, not slinging bullets) as it's a one-handed item in melee (club).
Nice idea.
But i cannot see why anyone would throw his slingstaff if not for dire need. Probably there are some expensive enhancements on there unlike on the other clubs you got in your pocket for throwing i guess.
Then with slingstaffs its always a special trouble:
Are the enhancements only on the sling part or do they count for the rest of the stick too?
Oh my i can so see someone throwing shurikens two handed^^
But i cannot see why anyone would throw his slingstaff if not for dire need.
Maybe the OP came across a halfling sling stave storage facility, in an area with no stones?
Then with slingstaffs its always a special trouble:
Are the enhancements only on the sling part or do they count for the rest of the stick too?
Weapons come in two basic categories: melee and ranged. Some of the weapons listed as melee weapons can also be used as ranged weapons. In this case, their enhancement bonuses apply to both melee and ranged attacks.
Oh my i can so see someone throwing shurikens two handed^^
Shuriken are ranged weapons, so even with the feat, you cannot use two hands to throw them.
Weapons come in two basic categories: melee and ranged. Some of the weapons listed as melee weapons can also be used as ranged weapons. In this case, their enhancement bonuses apply to both melee and ranged attacks.
Very nice, thank you! Didn´t see that before either.
My GM will bite his fists. Both at a time.
Shuriken are ranged weapons, so even with the feat, you cannot use two hands to throw them.
Two-Handed Thrower (Combat)
You hurl weapons with both hands and with great force, sometimes using a whirling technique to send your weapon flying through the air at tremendous speeds.
Prerequisite: Str 15.
Benefit: Whenever you use two hands to throw a one-handed or two-handed weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus. Using two hands to throw any weapon requires only a standard action for you. If you also have the Quick Draw feat, you can throw two-handed weapons at your full normal rate of attacks.
Normal: You add your Strength bonus on thrown weapon damage, regardless of available hands. Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.
Shurikens are a one-handed throwing weapon, yes.
But above feat says only weapons, not melee or ranged or throwing or whatever.
Shurikens are a one-handed throwing weapon, yes.
But above feat says only weapons, not melee or ranged or throwing or whatever.
Check Table: Weapons - you'll find Shuriken listed under Ranged Weapons, not one-handed weapons. The only time the book mentions the handedness of shuriken is under two-weapon fighting, where shuriken are treated as light weapons.
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Shurikens are a one-handed throwing weapon, yes.
But above feat says only weapons, not melee or ranged or throwing or whatever.Check Table: Weapons - you'll find Shuriken listed under Ranged Weapons, not one-handed weapons. The only time the book mentions the handedness of shuriken is under two-weapon fighting, where shuriken are treated as light weapons.
So, two-handed thrower does not work with light melee weapons?
So, two-handed thrower does not work with light melee weapons?
Correct.
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: "This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon."
The feat says "Whenever you use two hands to throw a one-handed or two-handed weapon..." so it only applies to one-handed or two-handed weapons, not light weapons.
-edit- Similar to how you can't use two hands to get 1.5x str on a light melee weapon, if that helps make sense. Two hands on a longsword, no problem, two hands on a dagger, doesn't help.
I realize I should not draw reality into the game, but we all know that a real (human) staff sling is a two handed weapon right? I mean you use it with two hands when slinging?
BOO reality!
I realize I should not draw reality into the game, but we all know that a real (human) staff sling is a two handed weapon right? I mean you use it with two hands when slinging?
Halflings require a free hand to hold pie.
Anyway, the thread is about thrown attacks, not ranged attacks. Meaning, he's not using it to sling stones, he tossing the entire stick at people.
But someone was pointing out that it takes two hands to load...
I suspect people are confusing firing the weapon with throwing it.
If you put a rock or bullet in the sling staff, and use the sling staff to fire the projectile, you're using a projectile weapon. You're not throwing anything.
The HSS says "Your Strength modifier applies to damage rolls when you use a halfling sling staff, just as it does for thrown weapons."
So if you can get 1.5x Str by having a feat and two-handing a thrown weapon, can you get the same with a bullet? No, because the bullet is not a one-handed or two-handed weapon. But can you get 1.5x Str by actually tossing the entire staff? Yes, because in melee it functions as a club, a club is a one-handed weapon, so with the feat you could throw the entire thing with two hands and get 1.5x Str on the thrown club damage.
in a home game I would say yes. You are using two hands (and a missile weapon) to hurl a bullet that will hit with more power.
It makes more sense in some cases.
It takes two hands to throw a greataxe. If you're really good at it (feat), you can throw the greataxe with more power and do more damage (and be quicker about it).
A bow you can't pull without feet, would have more power than a bow you can pull without feet, but pulling a normal bow with feet wouldn't be any difference, as it's not the feet but the bow that's providing the power to the arrow. (Unless you have a low str character with a high str bow, and let him use his feet to fire it normally while prone?)
The same way using a sling staff grants more power to the bullet by essentially elongating your arm like a lever, adding another hand to it seems less like giving it more power, and more like just stabilizing the thing.
What about a normal sling? It seems like a second hand would just get in the way and be harder to coordinate.
The old greeks and alike folk had two-handed slings.
They were hurling big special formed lead bullets or other metal at enemy phalanxes with them. Much like olympic hammer throwing.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Benefit: Whenever you use two hands to throw a one-handed or two-handed weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus.
Normal: You add your Strength bonus on thrown weapon damage, regardless of available hands. Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.
So is this stealth Errata or what?
The Core Rules don`t say anything that changes the `use 2 hands = apply 1.5 STR mod unless using Light Weapon rule`.The Thrown Weapons section in Equipment says but that is just re-iterating the normal STR mod to DMG rule, and not specifically negating the rule for using 2 hands (in the Combat section), which says ...NO mention of not applying to thrown weapons. If the Thrown Weapon section said `you ONLY apply STR bonus` there would be a case for excluding the 2-Handed bonus, but IT DOESN`T. There`s no reasonable case for reading the Core rules as excluding 2 Handed bonus DMG from applying to Thrown weapons.
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Incidentally, if this IS supposed to be Stealth Errata, it`s unfortunate that they still haven`t clarified the unclear language about action types for throwing, and what actual weapons that applies to.
The 2 Handed Thrower Feat says:
The Thrown Weapons section in the Core Equipment Chapter says:
In context, we can see that the specific action types to throw light/one/two-handed weapons is in the context of weapons NOT MEANT TO BE THROWN, since this info follows the shift of subject to weapons `not designed to be thrown`, and is located amidst the -4 attack penalty, and modification of Crit stats (to match Improvised Weapons, although you still do normal base damage in this case).
Weapons that ARE meant to be thrown, and thus have a listed Range stat, SHOULDN`T BE SUBJECT to the action limitation...
I.e. a Club, which has a listed Range, can be thrown (2 Handed, with appropriate damage bonus) via Iterative Attacks you may have and not simply as a single thrown attack as a Full-Round Action (as `Improvised Throwing Weapons` must be). You don`t need the 2-Handed Thrower Feat to do that, although you may run out of Clubs to throw unless you have Quickdraw.
But the new text in 2 Handed Thrower AGAIN makes the same error, by main-lining these action restrictions without clarifying that they only apply to `Improvised Throwing Weapons`. The Throwing Weapons section in Equipment really should be at least Errata`d to have a line-break just before the line that says , and ideally should have a TITLED SUB-SECTION that MAKES CLEAR the subject is now shifting to `Improvised Thrown Weapons`.
...I don`t know if that is my response `every time something is different` (than I think it should be?)
I know that I have critiqued many aspects of rules presentation without calling them Errata, such as the descriptive strategy for CMB/CMD and it`s relation to attacks/AC/bonuses.
If you want to explain how you see the Core rules are actually directing a limitation against 2-Handed dmg for Thrown Weapon in the Core Rules, feel free. I don`t see how, but let me know if I`m missing something.
If there is a possible Intent (not reflected in the rules I`m quoting) for restricting 2-Handed Bonus and Throwing Weapons, as reflected by newer Feats (and their portrayal of `Normal` functioning), I don`t see what it hurts to call attention to a mis-match between RAW and Intent. Maybe there IS some obscure Glossary entry that does convey that restriction, that I totally missed... Posting my take on it at least brings to attention that at least one player, and likely many others who just look at the rules that I quoted, could quite reasonably infer no such restriction: If the designers think that such restriction should exist, perhaps they might consider that the rules don`t clearly convey that restriction to a sub-set of players, and could be clarified. What else should I write to bring that to attention?
This is the core of what I wrote, followed up by details:
So is this stealth Errata or what?
The Core Rules don`t say anything that changes the `use 2 hands = apply 1.5 STR mod unless using Light Weapon rule`.
Question: Is this Stealth Errata or not? Yes/No.
Statement: Conjecture about what the Core Rules say, followed by detailed reading.
If that`s wrong, anybody can inform me of where it`s wrong.
Or disagree about by question if the new Feat is Stealth Errata or not.
Is that rubbing you wrong? I`m not sure why you would want to question that appraoch in general?
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons).
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
The ranged rules are separate from the melee rules for adding STR to attacks. The ranged only grant the STR mod. Only melee attacks with 2 handed weapons wielded in 2 hands grant the 1.5 STR mod. (or with the new feat a 2 handed thrown weapon now can too...)
Two-Handed Weapons as a weapon class indeed say that. But COMPLETELY INDEPENDENTLY the Combat section (which I quote) says ANY NON-LIGHT Weapon WIELDED IN 2 HANDS applies 1.5 STR to DMG... As a sub-section of the STR to DMG rule which applies to... Melee and Thrown weapons. Thrown Weapons are specifically mentioned in that section, and never excluded. The Thrown Weapon class description isn`t incomptable with being modified as per how the weapon is being wielded (2H vs. 1H).
The separete invocation of 2-Handed DMG bonus runs into other issues, such as when people wield Lances (2 Handed weapons) in 1 hand.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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...I don`t know if that is my response `every time something is different` (than I think it should be?)
I know that I have critiqued many aspects of rules presentation without calling them Errata, such as the descriptive strategy for CMB/CMD and it`s relation to attacks/AC/bonuses.
Aside from the post I was replying to, there's also where Sean K Reynolds clarified that combat maneuvers don't crit and you asked if he was planning future eratta.
Beyond that, I have vague memories of debating things with you and always hearing things like "if they want to eratta it, fine" or "unless they issue eratta", but never anything even remotely close to "I could be misinterpreting this, but..." or "I could see how you get X from Y, but I disagree" or anything else that would suggest either that you've considered the possibility of being wrong or even that you can understand someone else's position in the first place.
It's very hard to take you seriously when the perspective that comes through in your posts (even if it's not really what you're thinking) is that you approach every discussion with the assumption that you're infallibly and invariably correct.
If that's how you approach rules discussions, then don't expect reactions much different from what I just gave you. If that's not how you approach rules discussions, then it might behoove you to make that clearer in how you assert yourself.
As for two-handed throwing:
You quoted the rule yourself (about adding your STRmod to damage rolls). But then you stated that it can be dismissed because it doesn't mean what it says. I have no further argument on the matter.
OK, from the Combat section of the PRD:
Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
As soon as you drop, throw, chunk, heave, hurl, get rid of, remove from hands your weapon, you are no longer wielding said weapon. When taking in conjunction with the prior instance of the break down on STR modifiers from the equipment section, it makes sense.
Well, I don`t see any logical difference between the rule saying this in one place:
and in another place:
So I would read those as just superfluous re-mentioning of how things work, which we can see for 1-handed/2-handed melee weapons as well, so I wouldn`t be suprised by superfluous rules in this case... SKR I believe has underlined that the rules are often superfluous like that (in explaining how the Core rules originally never precluded non-Trip Weapons from delivering Trips, previous to the short lived FAQ changing that, which was itself later changed).
The first section (general rule for STR to DMG) is modified by the following:
How does that not apply to Thrown Weapons?
The section otherwise competently excludes things that it isn`t meant to apply to.
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I started my first post with a question: is this Errata or not, is the Feat actually changing a Core rule paradigm or not?
i.e. I`m happy for anybody to answer that question differently than I would.
I extensively lay out the relevant quotes and interpretation because I`m definitely NOT infallible... If I beleived I was, I wouldn`t need to take the time to explain why I thought like I do. In some cases, I have indeed misread the rules or over-looked some part (easy to do in this game), and people clarified the mistake... Made easier by the fact that I layed out the exact thought process so the exact area I was making a mistake could easily be seen. In any case useful to show how some players are reading the rules, i.e. even when the rules LOGICALLY work, sometimes they aren`t presented as clearly as they could be (e.g. Attack Action).
I`m completely open to anything showing that the Core rules indeed have some restriction on 2 handed bonus and throwing, but your response that throwing weapons invoke STR to damage doesn`t actually logically suffice for that. If the 1-handed Weapon category DIDN`T superfluously mention the benefit of wielding it in 2-hands, that wouldn`t stop the rules for wielding non-Light weapons with 2 hands (a subset of a rule that specifically applies to melee and thrown weapons) from applying to 1-handed weapons (in melee). Same for Thrown Weapons.
AFAIK, Paizo DOES PLAN on removing the superfluous Trip Weapon description part saying they can Trip, which is in line with position on the subject all along: that it would be clearer to remove that part, or actually anunciate a restriction in the Trip section itself. Assuming they do so, what is the problem with referring to that as Errata?
My original position on the Trip/Trip Weapon thing was that the rules technically functioned all along as per the latest FAQ, but were unclear/confusingly written because of the Equipment section`s vague implication (not actually sufficient to impose a restriction on non-Trip Weapons). I left (which reading to support) up to Paizo to clarify, because it was clearly written badly, I just couldn`t state with certainty what was the intent even if the current FAQ is in line with what the Core Rules actually directed. I`m not sure what your problem is with my stance on that... Bringing the issue up actually led to it`s clarification. What is bad about that?
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.As soon as you drop, throw, chunk, heave, hurl, get rid of, remove from hands your weapon, you are no longer wielding said weapon. When taking in conjunction with the prior instance of the break down on STR modifiers from the equipment section, it makes sense.
I knew somebody would respond with that, but my post was already too long.
OK, let`s look at the Thrown weapon section:
I think thrown weapons are still wielded.
The `Wielding a Weapon 2-Handed` section is a sub-section of the general `Strength Bonus` section, which explicitly applies to melee AND THROWN. It is excluded from applying to Light Weapons (which the general section on STR bonus DOES apply to), but not Thrown Weapons. Why would you read such a restriction into the section? Wouldn`t it be trivially easy to say `you don`t get this with Light Weapons or Thrown Weapons?` But it doesn`t say that.
Example of good grammar to force a reduced/limited functioning, right next door:
So Off-Hand Weapons say that you add ONLY 1/2 your STR bonus (within the scope of STR modifier, which this a sub-section of)... Meaning no other STR modifiers apply, ONLY the `minimized` 1/2 STR applies, even with Double Weapons wielded with 2 hands. But ONLY isn`t used in the case of Thrown Weapons, only wording that is equivalent to that applicable to ALL weapons (), i.e. it`s logically superfluous with the base Strength Modifier rules, not written to supersede it.
we can see that the specific action types to throw light/one/two-handed weapons is in the context of weapons NOT MEANT TO BE THROWN
That's actually a good point.
A Spear is a simple two-handed melee weapon with a 20' range.
Is throwing a spear a standard, or full-round action?
A breakdown of the Thrown Weapons section of the equipment chapter:
"Thrown Weapons: (list) are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons)."
No problems so far. Next sentence:
"It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown..."
It lists what this means (no range entry) and that there is a penalty (-4 to attack). No problems so far.
Next sentence:
"Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action."
Query: Does this apply to ALL thrown weapons, or only the ones that do not have a range value? Lets look at the next sentence:
"Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."
Clearly not true for all thrown weapons, as there would be no need for a range value. Thusly, the action limitation on throwing only applies to items not intended to be thrown.
A Spear is intended to be thrown, so even though it's a two-handed weapon, it does not take a full round to throw one.
Does this also mean that you get 1.5x Str to damage with a thrown spear? In the equipment chapter, no, it's clearly listed as Str to damage, and 1.5 is clearly listed only for melee attacks.
So what about the combat chapter... First we have a straight-forward rule:
"When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result."
Great, same as equipment chapter. Next sentence: Off-Hand Weapon. We don't care right now, though we might later.
Next sentence: "Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus"
So, do we think that this line includes throwing weapons with two hands? (Contradicting two other places in the book where it says Str for thrown) Or is it more likely that this means melee weapons? (Matching up with all the other rules in the book) Occam says the latter.
However, what about two-weapon fighting? You can two-weapon fight with thrown weapons. "The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand." So lets say someone throws two daggers, one main hand, one off hand. He uses TWF penalties for two light weapons. Does his off-hand get 1/2 str bonus? That's what that line up top said for off-hand weapons. Or, does the more specific rule about throwing weapons give him full str, since you get full str to damage with thrown weapons?
Since the two-handed Thrower feat exists, and it clarifies that normally you don't get 1.5x Str, then that should also mean that you don't normally get 1/2 str for thrown off-hands also.
exactly, it`s about consistent standards for reading the rules. sometimes the rules repeat themselves, some times they don`t... we can`t actually rely on that to correctly read the rules, because such an approach would create failures in other areas of the rules... so we have to rely on the actual logical statements of the rules themselves. to say that off-hand does apply to thrown weapons, but 2-handed wielding doesn`t, when there is no wording difference to support that is silly.
i don`t think you can really throw a spear with two hands, but that`s what the rules say you do (2 handed weapon requires using 2 hands, which invokes 2 handed DMG bonus in that case both via Combat chapter and 2 Handed Weapon type). Obviously in some cases we want to diverge from the rules somewhat, but for Throwing Hammers wielded with 2 Hands, I don`t see any obvious reason to do so, i.e. applying 2 Handed Wielding rules seems fine and reasonable.
If there IS some intended paradigm contra to Throwing + 2H STR bonus, I don`t see why it can`t be stated up-front, just like Ligth Weapons are excluded from 2Handed STR bonus.
But honestly, I have NO IDEA what Paizo`s actual intent on the subject is.
They sub-contract out alot of material, so perhaps it was merely the person who wrote the Two Handed Thrower Feat who was under that impression, and Paizo doesn`t intend for there to be any such restriction on 2-Handed Throwing STR bonus. I can`t answer this question definitively, only Paizo. I know I`ve always played allowing appropriate Thrown 2-Handed Weapons to get that benefit (STR bonus), and I`ve never seen anybody suggest otherwise, until this new Feat is released.
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Since the two-handed Thrower feat exists, and it clarifies that normally you don't get 1.5x Str, then that should also mean that you don't normally get 1/2 str for thrown off-hands also.
Lets not forget that the APG also "clarified" with the Sweeping Fend ability for polearm fighters that you cannot normally trip with a polearm... but then the devs came forward and stated that you can trip with a polearm, and that the ability needed some clarification.
My point is that it would not be the first thing in the add-on books to be changed due to incorrect wording or not providing an actual benefit due to a rule misunderstanding by the creator.