I'm running Kingmaker and the party recently faced their first shambling mound. According to the stat block, it appears that the SM gets a bonus to their CMB when grappling.
The party magus was grappled (on a crit as well) and went to cast. Of course, with PF, it's much harder to do. Since he was grappling with the SM, and the concentration check factors in the CMB, I ruled that the +4 applied since it applies to grappling. He disagrees with me because it sounded wrong to him.
As this isn't likely their last random encounter with Shambling Mounds, I want to make sure we get this right.
Thoughts?
Pg 206 of the CRB:
Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can casy while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grapplers CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
(bold emphasis mine)
And the bold part is where we disagree. He says that the base CMB applies, and I say that the CMB specific to grappling does, since the concentration check occurs within the context of a grapple.
i agree with you
I do as well, for the record. it says 'the grapplers cmb' As in, the cmb you use for a grapple. not 'the dude your fightings cmb that may or may not be grappling you at the moment'.
Seems fairly cut and dry
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
LOL, I just realized I typed grabbling instead of grappling. Wow, I'm an idiot.
I'm sure when I point him to the responders in this thread, he will still disagree. I explained that the specific bonus overrides the general text of the concentration check while grappling, which is the general rule of thumb for these kinds of games.
It's one of the worst things, IMHO, of being a GM. When you rule on a gray area that goes the players' way and allows them to do something, everything's all good. When you rule that something doesn't, it's not OK. When I have to make a rules interpretation, I consult the books, the PFR app on my iPhone/iPad, and search forums here. If that doesn't find something, I'll google it, though I try to avoid that as PF has enough differences to D&D that it's not always applicable.
Funny thing is, the whole thing is moot because he wouldn't have been able to cast the spell because it has a somatic component due to having the grappled condition. This is something that is stated in the Magic section on page 206 (as mentioned above), but not mentioned in the grappled condition description on page 567 when discussing the Concentration check. That's something that should possibly be included in the errata, IMHO. I look up a lot of rules in the PFR app as well (frees up my books to be used by the PCs), and it says the same thing.
I bolded it to make as a suggestion to add to the FAQ.
Quite frankly, it sounds like you need to have a sit down with your players and discuss rule 0. Grey areas are the GMs choice, and they need to understand that you're doing your best, and rulings will be in both their favor and not. They need to suck up the ones that arent.
Seems more a maturity issue than anything else. I dont always rule in favor of my own players, and sometimes I can see the lil bit of outrage on their face because they firmly believe themselves to be right, but we all get past it because its still just a game, and not the end of the world.
This is the first situation that's come up like this and he's accepted my ruling. When a player is faced with the potential for character death, I think that their reaction is always going to be skew towards overreaction.
That being said, I sent a Facebook message out to my players that any questions that they have regarding my interpretation of the rules should be raised during our dinner break or after the session. I'll also go over that again during our next session Saturday.
I typed that last post on my phone last night. The reason I submitted this as an FAQ candidate was to get it looked at for errata purposes. I know my group makes use of the PFR app, which is normally updated to reflect changes to the errata, and other groups use the errata itself, it'd nice to see the grappled condition updated to reflect the restrictions to the spells that can be cast. When I initially checked the grappled condition, I didn't even think to look in the magic section since the modifier was supplied in the condition description. It may not be FAQ/errata worthy, so I blame my newness around the forums if it's not.
Thanks for the responses so far, guys.
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And the bold part is where we disagree. He says that the base CMB applies, and I say that the CMB specific to grappling does, since the concentration check occurs within the context of a grapple.
I am not sure who is right. I would probably play it like you do.
But when I read the rules:
Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
The +4 bonus is given to the creature with grab when making a check to start or maintain a grapple. It's not a bonus to the CMB, it's a bonus to the grapple check.
In your case, the Shambling Mound is not making any grapple check. It has done it already. Now it's the magus that is doing a Concentration check against the CMB of the Shambling Mound. The magus is not trying to break the grab. That's another thing.
Note that the grab ability does not say the CMB is augmented by 4. It just say there is +4 bonus to the grapple check. When you use a masterwork sword you get a +1 bonus to your attack roll, but your BAB is not changed.
The entry about CMB in the Shambling Mound description
CMB +12 (+16 grapple);
could be misleading if what it means is simply what is described in the grab entry.
Nevertheless, I would probably add that +4 bonus to any check related to the grapple and not only to check done by the creature with the grab ... and I am sure my players would try to argue about that.
That's actually a very good point, Wolvic. It didn't occur to me to check the grab entry itself. If I had, I'd have seen it had the ability to grapple, take a -20 to the check, and not get the grappled condition.
With that text, I could see this going both ways. I still lean towards my interpretation because of the context of the concentration check.
Shambling mounds are definitely unpleasant, especially for a DEX based Magus. It's a good thing for him that I introduced hero points into the campaign.