so building a invunerable rager that fights with a viciuos greataxe. is that to much?
with out rage while power attacking ill be doing 1d12+2d6+14 and will only take 3 damage at the most from vicious and once i hit 12th level i wont take any. from a dm's point of view is this and abuse of DR?
Depends on your group. Playing a gnomish barbarian/wizard who uses a sap just doesn't make sense if you are playing with power gamers. Ask your DM and your group what they think.
It doesn't sound that bad to me. If the others have a problem, they can object.
Sounds like a barbarian to me.
A lot of those interactions were, I believe, intentionally designed.
I only really call it abuse if it makes the game less fun. Be a team player and avoid hogging glory and most reasonable GMs will leave you alone.
The dilemma is not "is my character good/bad". The real dilemma is "do I match the power level of the group?"
If the answer is yes, then you're fine. If not, you build resentment among the other players, which means less fun.
So, compare yourself to them, preferably in actual play.
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Note: DR does not prevent the damage from Vicious on either end, so that extra 2d6 goes right past your targets defenses, but the d6 goes past your own.
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When a vicious weapon strikes an opponent, it creates a flash of "disruptive energy that resonates between the opponent and the wielder. This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder."
I believe this damage is energy and not subject to DR. Is there a FAQ or Errata on this subject.
Ninja'd ya! :P
I remember seeing it discussed on here before at least a couple times though I couldn't be bothered to find the link...
Rest assured it is energy dmg therefore not subject to DR.
I believe this damage is energy and not subject to DR. Is there a FAQ or Errata on this subject.
Even if it is described as energy, if it is still Untyped damage it is effected by DR.
If it was an actual energy type of any kind it would be listed as such (and be subject to Energy Resistance). The description is just fluff to explain the effect, not an actual mechanic.
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It is untyped energy dmg.
"Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction."
The ability: "This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder."
Vicious is definitely not affected by DR, for the target or the wielder.
Still a good build though!
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This is written very plainly in a Paizo statblock so unless they have come out and said its a mistake I don't see why DR would not prevent the damage from the vicious property.
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so building a invunerable rager that fights with a viciuos greataxe. is that to much?
with out rage while power attacking ill be doing 1d12+2d6+14 and will only take 3 damage at the most from vicious and once i hit 12th level i wont take any. from a dm's point of view is this and abuse of DR?
Great build. Go with vicious keen falchion instead of vicious greataxe and you won't believe the amount of damage you deal on a regular basis... :)
Don't work. This is not physical damage, you should need energy resistance /untyped. Btw, doesn't exist.
If some strange update says otherwise is wrong. Don't consider it.
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hmmm interesting
Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damaged dealt along with an attack, or energy drains
when a vicious weapon strikes an opponent, it creates a flash of disruptive energy that resonates between the opponent and the wielder. This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder.
bold mine
Now as AlecStorm points out, the damage to the wielder is un-typed energy and DR clearly doesn't reduce any energy damage regardless of type. So i'd RAW the barbarian would still get damage, but as Jaryn pointed out there was a mod that has DR reducing this damage... Although some mods have been known to completely break the standard rules, IIRC there was a mod with a summoner and the summoner's eidolon didn't follow the correct rules at all
Also on a different note, considering DR doesn't work with touch attacks, it looks like the gunslinger just got a bit better RAW
EDIT:
Great build. Go with vicious keen falchion instead of vicious greataxe and you won't believe the amount of damage you deal on a regular basis... :)so building a invunerable rager that fights with a viciuos greataxe. is that to much?
with out rage while power attacking ill be doing 1d12+2d6+14 and will only take 3 damage at the most from vicious and once i hit 12th level i wont take any. from a dm's point of view is this and abuse of DR?
or better yet a vicious keen falcata
Why not 2 falcata? ;)
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Also on a different note, considering DR doesn't work with touch attacks, it looks like the gunslinger just got a bit better RAW
Not so fast:
...the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack...
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Also on a different note, considering DR doesn't work with touch attacks, it looks like the gunslinger just got a bit better RAWNot so fast:
...the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack...
hmmm serves me right for not checking the firearm rules and for posting at 1:30 in the morning
EDIT: yeah it's still to late, i forgot to quote some one else tooWhy not 2 falcata? ;)
1) feats
2) i don't want to do the math on that right now (-4 compared to -2), but generally TWF builds aren't very good due to needing full attacks and being MAD, although barbs can get pounce which helps get full attacks2a) i mostly play PFS games and to play though 30 mods before the character starts doing what he was built for doesn't sound like a good idea, more so when i only get to have fun with that for 6 mods
Even if it is described as energy, if it is still Untyped damage it is effected by DR.
Can you site a page on that? UNtyped damage is stopped by NOTHING. DR X/- ONLY stops bludgeoning, slashing and piercing, and it does not even stop THOSE if they are done by magic spells.
Untyped damage is so valuable BECAUSE It bypasses all defenses.
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Even if it is described as energy, if it is still Untyped damage it is effected by DR.Can you site a page on that? UNtyped damage is stopped by NOTHING. DR X/- ONLY stops bludgeoning, slashing and piercing, and it does not even stop THOSE if they are done by magic spells.
Untyped damage is so valuable BECAUSE It bypasses all defenses.
The numerical part of a creatures damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks
I'd say that DR doesn't reduce untyped damage. And the vicious weapon seems to do energy damage, although it doesn't tell us what kind of energy (force? negative?) although i'd be happy if it were force because nothing stops force damage IIRC, but then again i was wrong an hour ago, i could be wrong again
Who wrote the PFS module? Paizo contracts most of those out, so it isn't necessarily the RAI.
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.
The vicious weapon ability is this:
Vicious: When a vicious weapon strikes an opponent, it creates a flash of disruptive energy that resonates between the opponent and the wielder. This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder. Only melee weapons can be vicious.
Moderate necromancy; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, enervation; Price +1 bonus.
The enervation spell says this:
You point your finger and fire a black ray of negative energy that suppresses the life force of any living creature it strikes.
It seems pretty clear to me that the type of damage from vicious is energy, and due to that, it ignores DR.
Emphasis mine.
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Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.The vicious weapon ability is this:
Vicious: When a vicious weapon strikes an opponent, it creates a flash of disruptive energy that resonates between the opponent and the wielder. This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder. Only melee weapons can be vicious.
Moderate necromancy; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, enervation; Price +1 bonus.
The enervation spell says this:
You point your finger and fire a black ray of negative energy that suppresses the life force of any living creature it strikes.It seems pretty clear to me that the type of damage from vicious is energy, and due to that, it ignores DR.
Emphasis mine.
...wait, does that mean if you had something that was undead or someone who heals from negative energy like undead that they'd actually be healed by the vicious weapon? that sounds like some tasty tasty cheese right there
I think for balance reasons (the undead thing, really) it wasn't made negative energy.
I think it should read: Foe takes 2d6 energy damage, you take 1d6 energy damage.
Otherwise, I have no clue how it could possibly hurt you when you hurt someone, other than the enchantment turning the handle of weapon into a blade.
Hey, its a clever offensive use of a defenseive ability, go for it, you deserve the cookie
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I think it should read: Foe takes 2d6 energy damage, you take 1d6 energy damage.
This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder
It pretty much is already saying that(although how you put it would be clearer), the main problem i'm seeing here though is what type of energy damage is this? and more to the point can it be resisted by either opponent or wielder?
EDIT: some one ninja'd in and i did't want to double post
Hey, its a clever offensive use of a defenseive ability, go for it, you deserve the cookie
clever? yes! broken? damn right, it's basically trading in one enhancement bonus on a weapon for an extra 2d6 UNTYPED damage, for anyone who has more than DR6/-
I guess some people didn't read my previous post.
The vicious ability in the CRB specifically calls it out as ENERGY doing the damage, and the DR entry in the CRB specifically says DR does not protect against any form of energy damage.
I don't see what is confusing about this.
I understand it would be cool, and I know I previously built a character with this in mind, and I too was dissapointed when I found out it doesn't work.
I don't see how quoting a PFS scenario trumps the actual Core Rules. :P
the main problem i'm seeing here though is what type of energy damage is this? and more to the point can it be resisted by either opponent or wielder?
I don't see why it needs a type. It is energy damage, so it can't be resisted unless something somehow has a resist X against all energy.
Since the source is enervation, a good house rule would be to make it negative energy damage if that makes you feel better. But then I'm sure there would be some broken builds. Like a Dhampir.
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I guess some people didn't read my previous post.
The vicious ability in the CRB specifically calls it out as ENERGY doing the damage, and the DR entry in the CRB specifically says DR does not protect against any form of energy damage.
I don't see what is confusing about this.
I understand it would be cool, and I know I previously built a character with this in mind, and I too was dissapointed when I found out it doesn't work.I don't see how quoting a PFS scenario trumps the actual Core Rules. :P
I agree, but the problem is that it calls it out as energy damage without explaining the type. go look at the eidolon evolutions, mainly resistance and immunity it says to Pick one type of energy then goes to list a few types, cold, fire, electricity, acid and sonic, and when i think about i can still think of positive and negative (which is the type of energy the vicious weapon could be dealing).
the main problem i'm seeing here though is what type of energy damage is this? and more to the point can it be resisted by either opponent or wielder?I don't see why it needs a type. It is energy damage, so it can't be resisted unless something somehow has a resist X against all energy.
Since the source is enervation, a good house rule would be to make it negative energy damage if that makes you feel better. But then I'm sure there would be some broken builds. Like a Dhampir.
house rules work fine when it's not PFS, now at my group, i wouldn't expect to see this abused, at a con on the other hand....
I agree, but the problem is that it calls it out as energy damage without explaining the type.
This is NOT a problem since DR stops NO types of energy at all. So it does not matter WHAT type of Energy it is since DR does not stop ANY type of energy.
It stops Piercing, Slashing and Crushing physical damage from a non spell source.
I agree, but the problem is that it calls it out as energy damage without explaining the type.This is NOT a problem since DR stops NO types of energy at all. So it does not matter WHAT type of Energy it is since DR does not stop ANY type of energy.
It stops Piercing, Slashing and Crushing physical damage from a non spell source.
He wants to know what kind of energy to know what kind of energy resistance will stop it. I say it needs no type as it is intended to be irresistible.
On the other hand, where do you see that piercing, slashing and bludgeoning from spells ignores DR? There is no reason to designate piercing, slashing or bludgeoning in a spell except to interact with DR.
Ok, that probably needs a FAQ.
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.
Which does make it seem that any damage from spells ignores DR.
However, James Jacobs argued exactly what I said, albeit more eloquently. Of course, that post was marked as a FAQ and then marked as no developer response needed.
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Wow, I a lot of responses to this. Upon reading the the vicious property you are right and DR probably should not apply to it but I think that this is similar to the Spring Attack + Vital Strike debate. Even if it doesn't work RAW or RAI its a good strategy that isn't really game breaking.
If its a direction that a player wants to take his character in I wouldn't see a problem in allowing it to work. Mechanically the vicious property is nowhere near the best thing to invest in. A barbarian wielding a Furious weapon with a flat enhancement bonus and nothing else will come out ahead in damage either way.
clever? yes! broken? damn right, it's basically trading in one enhancement bonus on a weapon for an extra 2d6 UNTYPED damage, for anyone who has more than DR6/-
The furious property allows you to bypass more DR's at earlier wealth levels with all of your damage, so I don't think an average of 7 damage that bypasses DR is broken. The only way that is broken is if your attacks are going to completely ping off an opponents DR, and by the level where you can get DR 6/- (when you would be able to completely ignore the 1d6 backlash), average damage is probably going to get through DR anyways.
I love giving my barbarians weapons with both furious and vicious myself :D
Good times.
Usually they have enough HP that d6 to yourself is fairly insignificant.
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yep, that's why i'd like to know what type of energy it isHe wants to know what kind of energy to know what kind of energy resistance will stop it.I agree, but the problem is that it calls it out as energy damage without explaining the type.This is NOT a problem since DR stops NO types of energy at all. So it does not matter WHAT type of Energy it is since DR does not stop ANY type of energy.
It stops Piercing, Slashing and Crushing physical damage from a non spell source.
I say it needs no type as it is intended to be irresistible.
this is probably (and hopefully) the case
clever? yes! broken? damn right, it's basically trading in one enhancement bonus on a weapon for an extra 2d6 UNTYPED damage, for anyone who has more than DR6/-The furious property allows you to bypass more DR's at earlier wealth levels with all of your damage, so I don't think an average of 7 damage that bypasses DR is broken. The only way that is broken is if your attacks are going to completely ping off an opponents DR, and by the level where you can get DR 6/- (when you would be able to completely ignore the 1d6 backlash), average damage is probably going to get through DR anyways.
when i say broken i do mean in respects to the other +1 equivalent weapon modifiers. the D6 damage on the wielder is ment to offset the awesome damage, why bother going frost or flame when you can get this if you could ignore the damage reduction? hell, it's even better than holy or un-holy since there is no alignment restriction with the same damage, and it only cost +1 rather than +2. but this all relies on the idea that it could be resisted
Although furious is just really good, probably a little to good, how often, once players can afford +2 weapons, do you see barbarians not raging, ok maybe multi-class barbs or some one who took a two level dip in barbarian
Sounds to me like a great candidate for the enemy caster's dominate person or confusion effects. I particularly like the suggestion, "Your party's wizard has been replaced by a doppleganger, and he's about to attack."
That's not a suggestion, that's a statement.