Spell points are one of my favourite things from Unearthed Arcana. I love them to death.
In Pathfinder I want to start using the spell point system with the first set of rules for metamagic feats. On the surface it looks like the system should transfer over to Pathfinder without any modification necessary. Am I correct about this?
Spell points are one of my favourite things from Unearthed Arcana. I love them to death.
In Pathfinder I want to start using the spell point system with the first set of rules for metamagic feats. On the surface it looks like the system should transfer over to Pathfinder without any modification necessary. Am I correct about this?
You would have to recalculate Bard's spell points as his spells per day progression was changed a bit between 3.5 and PF. Otherwise it should work more or less as in 3.5. Which means that you would have to check for yourself how it goes in play with your group.
I like this system, but sorcerers/oracles - or basically any spontaneous spellcaster gets shafted big time, basically everyone gets their gimmick, without the drawbacks! they need something else to differentiate them from prepared spellcasters, or even up the odds a bit.
I like this system, but sorcerers/oracles - or basically any spontaneous spellcaster gets shafted big time, basically everyone gets their gimmick, without the drawbacks! they need something else to differentiate them from prepared spellcasters, or even up the odds a bit.
Yeah they do. Bards, too, but not as bad. If you look at it from the angle that sorcerers are more in tune with magic in their blood, then you can try to approach it from that angle. Why not lower the point cost for metamagic by 1 point for the "spontaneous" classes. Also go with letting them have one more spell known per spell level.
I like this system, but sorcerers/oracles - or basically any spontaneous spellcaster gets shafted big time, basically everyone gets their gimmick, without the drawbacks! they need something else to differentiate them from prepared spellcasters, or even up the odds a bit.Yeah they do. Bards, too, but not as bad. If you look at it from the angle that sorcerers are more in tune with magic in their blood, then you can try to approach it from that angle. Why not lower the point cost for metamagic by 1 point for the "spontaneous" classes. Also go with letting them have one more spell known per spell level.
I like this idea. I'll probably end up using it.
I like how it makes it easier for spontaneous classes to use metamagic. It always seemed to me that someone who learns spells permanently should be able to modify them easily.
I like this system, but sorcerers/oracles - or basically any spontaneous spellcaster gets shafted big time, basically everyone gets their gimmick, without the drawbacks! they need something else to differentiate them from prepared spellcasters, or even up the odds a bit.Yeah they do. Bards, too, but not as bad. If you look at it from the angle that sorcerers are more in tune with magic in their blood, then you can try to approach it from that angle. Why not lower the point cost for metamagic by 1 point for the "spontaneous" classes. Also go with letting them have one more spell known per spell level.I like this idea. I'll probably end up using it.
I like how it makes it easier for spontaneous classes to use metamagic. It always seemed to me that someone who learns spells permanently should be able to modify them easily.
Not to mention having to wait 1 more level for oracles/sorcerers makes no sense, thy are innate, alsmot second nature to them, it should come at the same time, not early, but at the same level a prepared spellcaster.
At higher levels clerics in Pathfinder lose out on a few of their lower level spells compared to 3.X clerics, so you might need to shave a few points off for that. Otherwise, I agree with the others regarding oracles and sorcerers.
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I strongly suggest you consider the HypertextD20 system.
I strongly suggest you consider the HypertextD20 system.
How do you mean?
I strongly suggest you consider the HypertextD20 system.
If you follow his link in the first post that is what he is referring to.
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I like this system, but sorcerers/oracles - or basically any spontaneous spellcaster gets shafted big time, basically everyone gets their gimmick, without the drawbacks! they need something else to differentiate them from prepared spellcasters, or even up the odds a bit.
Why not use the Spell Points, but make Wizards have to memorize their spells still? Then they still have the versatility of distilling their higher level spell slots into lower level spells...
I must admit, I don't remember the Spell Point system in its entirety...
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I like this system, but sorcerers/oracles - or basically any spontaneous spellcaster gets shafted big time, basically everyone gets their gimmick, without the drawbacks! they need something else to differentiate them from prepared spellcasters, or even up the odds a bit.
Not as bad as you think, really. Oracles add those spells to their spells known unlike a Cleric (Domain spells) which are still one or the other, once a day. The fact that they have more spell points and get a free spell known per spell level means they can actually maximize a lot of the benefits of the spell point system easier, and still have a lot of non-spell options (vs the Cleric).
Similar with Sorcerers, though somewhat less true in some cases, as they tend not to have as many spells not on their list anyways as bonus spells. However, the Cleric/Oracle <spont. divine caster> and Wizard/Sorcerer divide is a lot bigger in PF than it was in earlier editions, and they have a lot of class feature differences besides spells.
In fact, the only thing that really changes for spontanious casters is that they don't have to spend <the equivalent of> max points to cast a spell, meaning they can spend wisely and actually walk away with even more spells per day, if they want.
Prepaired Casters tend to pick mostly the same spells anyway, so it's not that huge a difference. I like the -1 spell point cost for spontanious metamagic cost, but might also suggest that spontanious casters can switch out a single spell known every week, or every level maybe, instead of at 4th and every 2 levels (or whatever they normally do).
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I like this system, but sorcerers/oracles - or basically any spontaneous spellcaster gets shafted big time, basically everyone gets their gimmick, without the drawbacks! they need something else to differentiate them from prepared spellcasters, or even up the odds a bit.Why not use the Spell Points, but make Wizards have to memorize their spells still? Then they still have the versatility of distilling their higher level spell slots into lower level spells...
I must admit, I don't remember the Spell Point system in its entirety...
I think you missed something in the document, as it says they must memorize what they can cast with the spell points, basically, the wiz/cleric can memorize-prepare any spell and cast as they see fit (basically like a spontaneous spellcaster) except they can switch the spells they can cast every day, the spontaneous spellcaster, cannot, thus, you know the rest.
Possible fixes:
- Either give them 1 more spell per spell level
- Let them learn new spell levels 1 lever earlier (on par with their prepared cousins)
I would not suggest giving them cheaper metamagic, that is TOO much in my opinion.
I think you missed something in the document, as it says they must memorize what they can cast with the spell points, basically, the wiz/cleric can memorize-prepare any spell and cast as they see fit (basically like a spontaneous spellcaster) except they can switch the spells they can cast every day, the spontaneous spellcaster, cannot, thus, you know the rest.
If the prepared caster still has to memorize ahead of time and the spontaneous caster can just spend his points on the spur of the moment not too much has changed. The Wizard has a bit more flexibility than before, being able to chose his loadout by points rather than slots, but the Sorceror still has more tactical flexibility.
Go read the description of the rules.
Wizards under default spell point rules function like sorcerers. When they prepare their spells per day, that sets their spells known for the day, from which they can cast any of them any number of times, in any combination, so long as they have points to do it with.
I actually use these rules in my games, although slightly modified. As already mentioned, spontaneous casters get shafted big time. Wizards have more spells known, and can now cast them just a versatile. I fixed this by having their Spell Points be their limit for prepared spells. For example, a wizard "Spends" 5 Spell Points to prepare a 3rd level spell. This functions just like normal. Spare, that the wizard could prepare a million first level spells, or a few higher level ones.
Go read the description of the rules.Wizards under default spell point rules function like sorcerers. When they prepare their spells per day, that sets their spells known for the day, from which they can cast any of them any number of times, in any combination, so long as they have points to do it with.
So you make the Wizard select his spells and memorize them as normal. He gets a bit more flexibility in his spells and the Sorceror is left with his spontaneous choices.
I thought it may be interesting to try a game where spontaneous casters get spell points whereas prepared casters get slots. It would really highlight the difference between the two types of casters.
If you're interested, I spent some time a little while ago "converting" the Spell Points system to Pathfinder. It was pretty much just recalculating the spell points by class and level table.
I would be interested. Thanks.
Sorry, meant to post the URL in the previous post. Somehow missed that part... 8^)
Thanks a billion. I have noticed that the Sorcerer has over a hundred more SP than the Wizard, which was not the case in Unearthed Arcana. That should compensate for the Wizard being more Sorcererish very nicely.
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True. But using the regular tables, the Sorcerer gets a bunch more spells per day anyway, so I reflected that in my updated tables. Make sure to look at the Conversion Note comment at the bottom. I noted some of my thought process there. And let me know how it works out in play -- I haven't playtested it yet, so I haven't figured out if the boosts to SP totals would be disruptive.
True. But using the regular tables, the Sorcerer gets a bunch more spells per day anyway, so I reflected that in my updated tables. Make sure to look at the Conversion Note comment at the bottom. I noted some of my thought process there. And let me know how it works out in play -- I haven't playtested it yet, so I haven't figured out if the boosts to SP totals would be disruptive.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks Arazyr! Sorry for the delay, my computer died. I forgot to update the spell point count for Pathfinder. Well done.
My game's spell casting costs are 2(spell level)+1. This allows me to not have to worry with a second system for cantrips. It allows for fewer spells per day, but we've never really had a problem. Well, there was a low level fight where the Sorcerer tapped herself out, but she would have done that with twice the points!
Another thought on how to re-balance the sorcerer & wizard. Since the spell point option gives some of the sorcerer to the wizard, let's reverse that to then give some wizard to the sorcerer. Have the sorcerer get the same point as a wizard, but then allow the sorcerer to learn spells & prepare them like a wizard. Basically a sorcerer is a 'specialist' wizard that concentrates on bloodline/pacts/whatever. Since the bloodlines give free spells to the sorcerer & has no opposition bloodline, keep the spell progression as is. Sorcerers still a level behind on what level spell they cast. This can be modified for the bard as well.
Another thought on how to re-balance the sorcerer & wizard. Since the spell point option gives some of the sorcerer to the wizard, let's reverse that to then give some wizard to the sorcerer. Have the sorcerer get the same point as a wizard, but then allow the sorcerer to learn spells & prepare them like a wizard. Basically a sorcerer is a 'specialist' wizard that concentrates on bloodline/pacts/whatever. Since the bloodlines give free spells to the sorcerer & has no opposition bloodline, keep the spell progression as is. Sorcerers still a level behind on what level spell they cast. This can be modified for the bard as well.
I never understood that unwritten rule that spontaneous spellcasters must wait one more level to learn new spell levels, ironically, they are sold as a class that can cast more spells than the prepared version, yet with the new spell level delay, they end up with about the same spells per level...except the spontaneous one can't change spells per day...sad really. they should fix that and let spontaneous spellcasters learn new spell levels on par with the prepared version.
Some alternatives for spontaneous casters when using spell points:
.one additional spell known for each new spell level attained;
.bonus to Concentration checks equal to 1/2 class level;
.one additional spell point per level.
Another thought on how to re-balance the sorcerer & wizard. Since the spell point option gives some of the sorcerer to the wizard, let's reverse that to then give some wizard to the sorcerer. Have the sorcerer get the same point as a wizard, but then allow the sorcerer to learn spells & prepare them like a wizard. Basically a sorcerer is a 'specialist' wizard that concentrates on bloodline/pacts/whatever. Since the bloodlines give free spells to the sorcerer & has no opposition bloodline, keep the spell progression as is. Sorcerers still a level behind on what level spell they cast. This can be modified for the bard as well.I never understood that unwritten rule that spontaneous spellcasters must wait one more level to learn new spell levels, ironically, they are sold as a class that can cast more spells than the prepared version, yet with the new spell level delay, they end up with about the same spells per level...except the spontaneous one can't change spells per day...sad really. they should fix that and let spontaneous spellcasters learn new spell levels on par with the prepared version.
I never understood it either. That said, It is a reasonable option in my example to keep it balanced with the wizard if you used my option I mentioned.
Some alternatives for spontaneous casters when using spell points:
.one additional spell known for each new spell level attained;
.bonus to Concentration checks equal to 1/2 class level;
.one additional spell point per level.
I already mentioned the extra spells earlier. As for spell points, there is a link with a point progression that gives sorcerers way more points than just one per level. I couldn't justify the Concentration check since it isn't a skill anymore, just a caster level check.
Are there any credible rumors of Paizo officially adding any form of spell point system to Pathfinder?
Are there any credible rumors of Paizo officially adding any form of spell point system to Pathfinder?
I have not heard any. I have asked, so you will have an answer soon.
JJ mentioned that he and some other guys at paizo were not fans of a points pool for psionics, so I doubt they'd be fans of it for non-psionics.