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Can two (or more) different Flaming Spheres effect the same character at the same target at the same time?
for example, 4 3rd level wizards all cast Flaming Sphere on the same Dwarf Cleric, at the same time. What is the result? 4 reflex saves for a total of 16d6 damage?
Well, let's see...
The "effect" line says it creates a 5-foot diameter sphere, so that would seem to imply no space-sharing.
On the other hand, the spell specifically references entering a creature's space in order to deal damage to it.
Also, it describes the sphere as having a spongy, yielding consistency.
Personally I see no reason to disallow multiple spheres to push up against the same medium creature. I'm not sure how many, though. That seems fuzzy.
Also, it's 3d6 per sphere, not 4d6. (4x3=12, 4x4=16)
Poor Nosig. You always seem to be getting stuck with DMs that are out to get you.
Actually, I think you can do that just fine.
A burning globe of fire rolls in whichever direction you point and burns those it strikes. It moves 30 feet per round. As part of this movement, it can ascend or jump up to 30 feet to strike a target. If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature, though a successful Reflex save negates that damage. A flaming sphere rolls over barriers less than 4 feet tall. It ignites flammable substances it touches and illuminates the same area as a torch would.
The sphere moves as long as you actively direct it (a move action for you); otherwise, it merely stays at rest and burns. It can be extinguished by any means that would put out a normal fire of its size. The surface of the sphere has a spongy, yielding consistency and so does not cause damage except by its flame. It cannot push aside unwilling creatures or batter down large obstacles. A flaming sphere winks out if it exceeds the spell's range.
The spell never says that the sphere sits in the same square as the creature that it hits. In fact if the sphere entered the square the creature was in, then there would be no room for the creature.
So my take is that when the sphere hits a creature, it stops right there. Since you can't have objects halfway between square, it actually has to stop in the square just prior to hitting the creature. Thus, the sphere hits the creature then bounces back to the previous square.
Another things to note, "the sphere can ascend or jump up to 30 feet to strike a target" A sphere could easily jump over another sphere.
The pratical limit would be 8 spheres.
The pratical limit would be 8 spheres.
Actually, you have a very good argument there. However, the REAL practical limit is 2 spheres per caster, with a maximum total of 1 per adjacent square (8 for small or medium, 12 for large, etc.). I say 2 per caster because each individual can only perform 2 move actions per round, one with their move, and one with their standard. Any spheres beyond 2 would just sit in their square for the round.
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The spell never says that the sphere sits in the same square as the creature that it hits. In fact if the sphere entered the square the creature was in, then there would be no room for the creature.
So my take is that when the sphere hits a creature, it stops right there. Since you can't have objects halfway between square, it actually has to stop in the square just prior to hitting the creature. Thus, the sphere hits the creature then bounces back to the previous square.
It says that if it enters a creature's space, it stops moving and deals damage. Thus, they occupy the same space.
Another things to note, "the sphere can ascend or jump up to 30 feet to strike a target" A sphere could easily jump over another sphere.
I like the idea of one sphere sharing the space while the other jump-kicks the guy in the face and lands on the other side. :D
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It says that if it enters a creature's space, it stops moving and deals damage. Thus, they occupy the same space.
Actually, after Charender's interpretation, I believe it works thus:
- sphere moves toward target.
- sphere enters target's square, forcing a reflex save and subsequent damage.
- sphere bounces back to next available square, much like a failed bull rush attempt.
If someone enters the sphere's square, they also can take damage.
On the next round, the caster can (as a move action) make the sphere roll & bounce around up to its max movement, or until it bounces off a creature, whichever comes first.
This means my assumptions on FS have been false until just recently - I've been DMing and playing this spell all wrong for years.
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It says that if it enters a creature's space, it stops moving and deals damage. Thus, they occupy the same space.Actually, after Charender's interpretation, I believe it works thus:
- sphere moves toward target.
- sphere enters target's square, forcing a reflex save and subsequent damage.
- sphere bounces back to next available square, much like a failed bull rush attempt.
Although running it like that would likely work pretty smoothly, I don't see where the basis is for it in the rules (that is, if you're arguing that this is how the rules work - if not, then disregard this). The spell description specifically references entering the creature's square and then stopping. It says nothing about reverting back to a previous square.
It says "it stops" and you're interpreting that as "it stops and then goes the other way". So unless there's some general rule about objects bouncing back by default, you're inserting something that is not only not present in the text, but actually contradicts it - "move" is the opposite of "stop", regardless of direction.
The main reason I think it ends up in an adjacent square is because the square it entered is full of the target (sans eyebrows). Standard movement and position rules would apply.
But the spell says what it says, so...
It seems a reasonable call to me, either way.
The spell aiming type is an "effect", and the spell description defines specific dimensions - it's functionally a solid object.
Can an object of such significant dimensions occupy the same space as a creature in combat?
Refer to Wall of Stone.
Refer to Dimension Door.
Refer to Shadow Walk.
Refer to Bull Rush.
Man... I totally misread the title of this thread.
"Stacking flamingo spheres."
I need to design a new spell when I get home from work.
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Standard movement and position rules would apply.This would be the "unless there's a general rule" caveat I made. Can you direct me to this?
Here would be my arguments against the sphere occupying the same space:
1)
Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.2)
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.
I've always played it as 1 sphere per square, but it's not totally obvious as written.
There's also the movement rules in combat:
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.
It's a moving object that moved into that space and stopped. It has to go back to it's last legal space.
At least.. that's one interpretation. It is a spell after all, so it might only do exactly what is written in the spell (and occupy space).
A good one for a FAQ.
Edit: Ninja'd. Stepped away for too long after reading this post, heh.
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Ok so how the heck does one fight with a 5' diameter sphere of flaming sponge occupying the same space?
By grabbing it and shoving it down someone's throat, of course! ;)
Can I block a flaming sphere? If I am in a 5ft wide hallway can I stand there and block the sphere from rolling past me? by one interpretation it stops in my square so can just leave that square the next round on the other side of me. But if a 4.5 foot tall fence can stop it why cant my 6.5 foot barbarian stop it?
The spell says that it stops when it enters your space, and also that it can't force its way past an unwilling creature. No one's trying to say that your 6.5 barbarian can't block it, so I'd thank you not to imply that anyone is.
I would have to rule that it stops in the square it was in prior to contacting the subject otherwise there are to many other questions that rise.
I just wish the "stop in the last unoccupied square" rule didn't say "character". That'd make it much easier for me to accept the application of that rule to flaming sphere. And honestly, ruling it that way would be my preference.
If it can just pass through me and exist in the same square I am in the why cant multiple flaming spheres stop on top of each other?
Now I'm picturing those segmented cactus guys from Super Mario World, but on fire.
The sphere does rest in the same square since the spell allows it to break the rules. How many spheres is up to the GM. Since it is 5 ft in diameter I would only allow one sphere per square for reasons of verisimilitude. Balance wise I see no issue stacking them.
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I just wish the "stop in the last unoccupied square" rule didn't say "character". That'd make it much easier for me to accept the application of that rule to flaming sphere. And honestly, ruling it that way would be my preference.
So read the word as character/creature/object, otherwise if you go with strictly applying to "characters" then this rule would not apply to anything from the Bestiarys.
As another example I would use is that tiny creatures have to enter your square to attack but they don't get to stop there they have to go back to the last legal square.
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Actually the spell never says it can't force its way past unwilling creatures it only says that it "cannot push aside unwilling creatures."
Oh, whoops, my bad. I guess you've got a point there, then.
Though you're still ignoring the "grab it and use it as a weapon" thing. ;)
As another example I would use is that tiny creatures have to enter your square to attack but they don't get to stop there they have to go back to the last legal square.
Wait, what?
The sphere does rest in the same square since the spell allows it to break the rules. How many spheres is up to the GM. Since it is 5 ft in diameter I would only allow one sphere per square for reasons of verisimilitude. Balance wise I see no issue stacking them.
Not really. The spell says that it enters the square, and stops. The spell is silent on where it ends up after it stops. That is the problem. If you apply the standard movement rules for creatures, it goes back to the last legal spot.
Allowing a 5' sphere and a normal medium sized creature occupy the same square is really hard on verisimilitude.
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If I was running the game I would totally allow someone to grab it a beat said caster with his only Flaming Nerf Ball of Pain. I think the wielder would have to choose to forgo his reflex save in this case though. What about looping some chain around it and wielding it like a giant flaming flail?
Isn't there a feat to let you grapple with a whip? Go go gadget Whirling Flail of Flame!
EDIT: Or use a mancatcher. Or delay and let the druid cast Resist Energy on you before just picking it up with your bare hands.
The sphere does rest in the same square since the spell allows it to break the rules. How many spheres is up to the GM. Since it is 5 ft in diameter I would only allow one sphere per square for reasons of verisimilitude. Balance wise I see no issue stacking them.Not really. The spell says that it enters the square, and stops. The spell is silent on where it ends up after it stops. That is the problem. If you apply the standard movement rules for creatures, it goes back to the last legal spot.
Allowing a 5' sphere and a normal medium sized creature occupy the same square is really hard on verisimilitude.
The rules say it stops. It can't stop and move back to another square since stopping and moving are opposites. It actually says it stops for the round. Now a GM can rule otherwise of course, but "enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round" means just that.
Having one sphere does stress the issue, which is why I would only allow one.
Now I see where the folks who disagree with me are getting the rule that backs 'em up. However, a 'spell effect', even if (semi)solid, hardly ever follow the same rules as a 'creature' or even an 'object'. Also, I believe PF still has the general guideline that "a specific rule that contradicts a general rule trumps the general rule," doesn't it?
Also, I too would want a Super Happy Flaming Nerf... provided I had the fire subtype or something. It would be like a pillow fight, except with fatalities.
I agree that the sphere isn't a creature, but the "specific" rules dont really say exactly where the sphere stops. "Enters a square" is a vague wording. That could mean "attempts to enter the square" or "completely enters the square" depending of who is reading it. That is the problem.
The rules say it stops. It can't stop and move back to another square since stopping and moving are opposites. It actually says it stops for the round. Now a GM can rule otherwise of course, but "enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round" means just that.Having one sphere does stress the issue, which is why I would only allow one.
Read the above, attempting to enter the square and failing isn't the same as entering the square and going back.
In this case, the sphere partially enters the target square. It makes contact with an enemy and stops. 90% of the sphere is still in the previous square, so it stops right were it is, but it counts as being in the previous square.
not for me. I see it regular, I am englobed in a 5' sphere of air all the time, unless it's water. Fire? just another element. works fine for me. Much like a 5' ball of flaming smoke... ouch! unless I am fire resistant, then can I pick it up and pitch it at the guy who thru it on me? nah, it's fire and has no material parts...The sphere does rest in the same square since the spell allows it to break the rules. How many spheres is up to the GM. Since it is 5 ft in diameter I would only allow one sphere per square for reasons of verisimilitude. Balance wise I see no issue stacking them.Not really. The spell says that it enters the square, and stops. The spell is silent on where it ends up after it stops. That is the problem. If you apply the standard movement rules for creatures, it goes back to the last legal spot.
Allowing a 5' sphere and a normal medium sized creature occupy the same square is really hard on verisimilitude.
Air/water is a fluid. Residing in the same square as a fluid isn't a problem. If the spell was a "flame sphere" of pure flame, then I would have no problem with it. Flaming sphere is specifically called out as being some kind of solid nerf ball that is on fire. As such, it is solid, and thus I have a hard time with it and a medium creture occupying the same space, without it affecting the creatures ability to attack(squeezing rules) and be attacked(The sphere should provide cover). Since the spell doesn't call out either of these things, then I don't think it is intended for the sphere to occupy the same square as a medium sized creature.
wait... does the sphere provide cover? hard cover or soft? where does it say this?
for that matter where does it say I have to squeeze to pass the flaming sphere?
or for that mater where does it say I have to make a save to inter the square it is currently in?We are reading a lot into this spell....
It doesn't call out those things. That is my point. If I am standing in a square occupied by a 5 foot flaming nerf ball, I should get those things, but by the RAW of the spell, I don't.
wait... does the sphere provide cover? hard cover or soft? where does it say this?
for that matter where does it say I have to squeeze to pass the flaming sphere?
or for that mater where does it say I have to make a save to inter the square it is currently in?We are reading a lot into this spell....
It doesn't call out those things. That is my point. If I am standing in a square occupied by a 5 foot flaming nerf ball, I should get those things, but by the RAW of the spell, I don't.
wait, I am confused.
a) If you were the DM of a game my character is in and there is a FS on the table, can my character use it as cover?b) If you were the judge of a PFSOP table my character is at and there is a FS on the table, can my character use it as cover?
If I were the DM, then you could use it as concealment for sure, maybe cover(depends on how solid you consider the sphere to be). My problem is that another judge could decide it doesn't grant cover or concealment, and by the RAW, they are just as correct as I am.
You interpret the sphere as being a bubble of fire. I have always considered it to be more of a sponge that is on fire. The spell description is too vague to say which of us is correct.
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Alright, I totally want to write a PFS scenario in which you find as loot a scroll of resist energy and a scroll of flaming sphere (perhaps with a higher-than-minimum caster level) in the same room. See if anyone takes the bait and starts wielding the Flaming Sponge of Doom.