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If so, are they unable to racially modify this non-existent score with ability score modifiers trait?
What are the further ramifications of substituting charisma for constitution?
Unlooked for constitution effects (apart from those listed: hp, fort saves, "any special ability that relies on constitution" seems quite loose) (EDIT: actually "any" covers just about........ ANYthing. So it's this next bit i'm interested in.....)
AND
Super-charging charisma to get two ability effects (charisma and constitution) for one?
One ramification will be zombies who will wine'n'dine you before they eat your brains.
With gigantic appetites in direct proportion to their gifts of persuasion and all around charm! :^}
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If so, are they unable to racially modify this non-existent score with ability score modifiers trait?
Yup, them's the rules.
Note that some undead 'feed' in some manner, and are capable of having whatever negative-energy-fueled-'biology' disrupted by infusions of positive energy (just as a positive-energy-fueled living creature has its inner workings bollixed up by an infusion of negative energy), so, despite the 'Con 0' thing, it more or less has some sort of 'system' going on.
Just like a car, there's stuff going on inside of most undead that can be jammed up, whether it's alive or dead (and should, theoretically, be capable of suffering precision damage, since, like a zombie's head or a vampire's heart or my car's engine, there are parts that are more important than others).
While some might think it 'feels weird' to give a Ghoul or a Vampire (or an Iron Golem or Animated Object) a Con score, the number is just a representation of the structure of the creature and its ability to be damaged. There's really no mechanical reason why an inanimate object wouldn't use a Con score to represent such things, even if it's powered by a different color of energy (or a living elemental spirit, or whatever), other than backwards-compatibility with 3.X.
The no Con thing, IMO, is a holdover from 3.X that makes about as much sense as the Int nonability or mindless trait, regularly assigned to creatures capable of crafting webs, being trained, following complex instructions, understanding language, etc.
Opening up the Con score to apply to systems powered by energy sources other than positive energy (such as negative energy or bound elementals) simplifies the various exceptions and corner-cases that needed to be created for creatures with no Con score (like using Cha for undead, or the bonus hit points based on size for constructs).
Thanx Set. I totally don't think it's weird for undead to have a constitution score, for the reasons you gave. And it seems like doubling up on charismatution could lead to some two for one schtick.
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Thanx Set. I totally don't think it's weird for undead to have a constitution score, for the reasons you gave. And it seems like doubling up on charismatution could lead to some two for one schtick.
The only time I saw doubling up as a problem was in 3.X when someone knew that they were headed for Necropolitan, and dumped Con into the toilet.
It also tends to result in creatures like Ghouls and Shadows having quite high Charisma scores, which 'looks funny' since they aren't generally pictured as wine snobs, political creatures or well-spoken fans of haut couture, but hey, that's just the way the system goes. *Some* portrayals of vampires probably warrant a high Charisma (certainly not the 30 Days of Night / Near Dark / Nosferatu sorts, but yes to the Draculas and the Lestats), but the Cha-as-Con thing tends to result in *zombies* having a higher Cha score than a bear or tiger (which lives or dies during mating season based on it's ability to Intimidate!).
It also tends to result in creatures like Ghouls having quite high Charisma scores, which 'looks funny' since they aren't generally pictured as well-spoken fans of haut couture, but hey, that's just the way the system goes. *Some* portrayals of vampires probably warrant a high Charisma (certainly not the 30 Days of Night / Near Dark / Nosferatu sorts, but yes to the Draculas and the Lestats), but the Cha-as-Con thing tends to result in *zombies* having a higher Cha score than a bear or tiger (which lives or dies during mating season based on it's ability to Intimidate!).
The bestiary mentions stylish/civilised ghouls! :) I guess the high cha here for undead represents sheer willpower ( as opposed to will save mechanic), bloodymindedness and inscrutability. Or general personal drive or driven-ness.
The problem seems to me to be if you have abilities/powers/feats/skills/checks based on these TWO combined scores you only need to raise/ modify ONE score- charisma.
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*Some* portrayals of vampires probably warrant a high Charisma (certainly not the 30 Days of Night / Near Dark / Nosferatu sorts, but yes to the Draculas and the Lestats), but the Cha-as-Con thing tends to result in *zombies* having a higher Cha score than a bear or tiger (which lives or dies during mating season based on it's ability to Intimidate!).
I disagree. The "30 Days of Night" Vampire did indeed have a high charisma, but it's focus was fear and terror, not social ability or socializing.
Charisma is force of personality and spirit and that can be beautiful/convincing or horrifying/terrifying or even a combination of those and more.
If the Vampires in '30' scared you then that was their Charisma (enhanced with circumstance bonuses from their brutal and violent actions).
Charisma is doubly powerful for undead.
An undead character has only five stats, and charisma *COULD* be seen as twice as powerful as any one stat. Choosing constitution based abilities and charisma based abilities only requires bumping charisma to improve both. Seems, if not "broken" then at least "fractured".
