Why do some abilities require standard race prerequisite

[Suzaku]

I noticed that some abilities like Elven Magic, Elf Immunities, Duergar Immunities etc. I was wondering why are these abilities are locked out? Why can't I make an outsider (native) character who is resistant to charm effects, do not need to sleep, are immune to paralysis, phantasms, and poison and the race puts special effort to study magic.

[Suzaku]

Also the example for Dhampir also breaks the prerequisite rules by having Elven Immunity.

[Joe Wells]

This was one of the first things to jump out at me. If the goal is to deconstruct race building so that we can mix and match existing (and new) components, then many of the Type pre-reqs should be stripped out.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

I think the intent was to build on synergy. Like dwarves already have a bonus to Con, so Hardy builds on that for a reduced cost. But if that's the case, they should either 1) change the Hardy prerequisite to "must have bonus to CON", or b) strip out the dwarf requirement, raise the RP, then offer a discount to those with a racial Con bus.

[Bryan Stiltz]

I had typed this in in its own thread before I saw this one, reposting here:

I'm actually pretty happy with the flexibility of the system as presented - but one thing strikes me as out of place. (I'm not going to talk about the point costing, there's enough threads on that topic ATM)

Given that I want to use this system to make homebrew races for a homebrew game world, The sheer number of abilities that have as a pre-requisite "[racial subtype]" confound me. I might want a race that has the innate magical abilities of a gnome, (and thus the Gnome Magic ability) but isn't Gnomish.

To be honest, I would prefer it be called something other than Gnome Magic, Elf Immunities, Duergar Immunities etc., becuase I'm not creating Gnomes, Elves, or Duergar. I get what those names represent, but perhaps Elf Immunities should be Enchantment Resistant, Gnome Magic as Innate Magic, and Duergar Immunities as ... I dunno, something not tied to them being a race I'm not building.

Elemental resistance requires it being an outsider of an elemental plane, so I can't add it to a race of beings that live in harsh arctic conditions, without making them outsiders.

Yes, there's always the option that I could ignore the pre-req in a home game, but I have to admit that I would prefer to see a system that let me flavor races how I want, without being forced to adhere to Golarion's pre-conceived notions of what races should be allowed Gnome Magic...

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Bryan Stiltz wrote:

Elemental resistance requires it being an outsider of an elemental plane, so I can't add it to a race of beings that live in harsh arctic conditions, without making them outsiders.

Yeah, I've got a genengineered humanoid race with a chunk of reptile "DNA" spliced in, so I came up with Winter is Death (which is the opposite of what you're looking for, but you get my point).

[Monkeygod]

I 100% agree with this post. It is utterly stupid to force one to have a specific type or subtype in order to pick certain abilities.

For example, I am building a simian humanoid for a one shot, and want to give it Sneaky, but I can't cuz he isn't some stupid goblin?? ONLY they can be sneaky??? Cuz ya know, halflings aren't though they get the bonus differently, but the point remains.

CHANGE THIS PLEASE!!! you guys are better than this.

[Atarlost]

If balance is the end goal shouldn't synergy cost more RP rather than fewer?

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Atarlost wrote:

If balance is the end goal shouldn't synergy cost more RP rather than fewer?

If a race already has a +2 to CON, they have a +1 to Fort saves over other races. In that case, Hardy builds on that foundation. Or a bonus to DEX may make sense with a discount on the Sprint ability for the Catfolk. So I think some synergy is logical and should result in an RP discount in some cases.

But there should also be limits, so a race doesn't become entirely a CON-based or STR-based powerhouse at 1st level. There are some limits in the playtest to how much similar stuff a race can get, but I think they could still use some tightening. Which is why this is an alpha playtest. :)

I'm trying to say I want the races to each have their areas and opportunities to shine, but not to hog the spotlight.

[Atarlost]

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Atarlost wrote:

If balance is the end goal shouldn't synergy cost more RP rather than fewer?

If a race already has a +2 to CON, they have a +1 to Fort saves over other races. In that case, Hardy builds on that foundation. Or a bonus to DEX may make sense with a discount on the Sprint ability for the Catfolk. So I think some synergy is logical and should result in an RP discount in some cases.

But there should also be limits, so a race doesn't become entirely a CON-based or STR-based powerhouse at 1st level. There are some limits in the playtest to how much similar stuff a race can get, but I think they could still use some tightening. Which is why this is an alpha playtest. :)

I'm trying to say I want the races to each have their areas and opportunities to shine, but not to hog the spotlight.

An 18 starting stat builds on the foundation of a 14 starting stat, but getting from 14 to 18 is far more expensive than getting from 10 to 14. For balance discounts should be on the least synergistic combinations. They're the ones that are mechanically weak.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Atarlost wrote:

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Atarlost wrote:

If balance is the end goal shouldn't synergy cost more RP rather than fewer?

If a race already has a +2 to CON, they have a +1 to Fort saves over other races. In that case, Hardy builds on that foundation. Or a bonus to DEX may make sense with a discount on the Sprint ability for the Catfolk. So I think some synergy is logical and should result in an RP discount in some cases.

But there should also be limits, so a race doesn't become entirely a CON-based or STR-based powerhouse at 1st level. There are some limits in the playtest to how much similar stuff a race can get, but I think they could still use some tightening. Which is why this is an alpha playtest. :)

I'm trying to say I want the races to each have their areas and opportunities to shine, but not to hog the spotlight.

An 18 starting stat builds on the foundation of a 14 starting stat, but getting from 14 to 18 is far more expensive than getting from 10 to 14. For balance discounts should be on the least synergistic combinations. They're the ones that are mechanically weak.

emphasis added to my original comment

So, if you pay RP for an aquatic template, you should pay proportionately higher for a swim speed, then proportionately even higher for gills? But a slightly tweaked human offshoot who only gets just the swim speed pays less for it in RP than your aquatic race paid for that singular ability?

Or if someone today were building halflings -- a small race that gets a +1 size bonus to AC and +4 size bonus on Stealth -- they should pay more for a +2 racial bump to DEX (that grants a +1 to AC)? Should they pay even more for the +2 skill bump to Stealth (benefits from Stealth and DEX increase) than a Medium race?

Some synergy discounts make sense. Too many discounts isn't synergy; it's munchkin-ing.

[Lord Fyre]

Suzaku wrote:

I noticed that some abilities like Elven Magic, Elf Immunities, Duergar Immunities etc. I was wondering why are these abilities are locked out? Why can't I make an outsider (native) character who is resistant to charm effects, do not need to sleep, are immune to paralysis, phantasms, and poison and the race puts special effort to study magic.

Simple. The designer of the system is selling Shoehorns, but trying to call them Lego.

[GoldenOpal]

I feel it is less about ‘synergy’ of abilities and more about keeping the established racial ‘themes’ intact. (Maybe this is just semantics, but to me there is a distinction there.) As it stands now it does feel really limited looking through all the options and finding so many locked out. But as this is a first draft it makes sense, as most of them were copy-pasted from the current racial traits. For types that cost RP the prerequisites also force a bit of balance.

I’d like to see them make some of the ability options with type prerequisites have two tiers of cost where not being the ‘favored’ type costs more RP. It gives an incentive to stick with the established themes of the game while allowing for more variety and still balances for those prerequisites that cost RP.

Even if they stay on the current tract, I think/hope this will be less of an issue when more racial ability options get added to the ruleset.

[Christina Morris]

GoldenOpal wrote:

I’d like to see them make some of the ability options with type prerequisites have two tiers of cost where not being the ‘favored’ type costs more RP. It gives an incentive to stick with the established themes of the game while allowing for more variety and still balances for those prerequisites that cost RP.

Why does there need to be an incentive to stick with established themes? My setting isn't very much like Golarion at all. A DM that wants to have a world more like Pathfinder's default setting will stick with those themes when he decides what type of races he's building for his game. If he doesn't want to do that, his players shouldn't be, in effect, punished by having weaker race options available to them because of the setting their DM has created.

I have a race of elves with something a lot like the Gnome Magic trait, which gnomes get for 1 RP. To duplicate that for my elves (since they're too tall, I guess) it costs 4 RP. For a system that's supposed to let us get creative with our homebrews, that's very oddly limiting.

As said before, we need Legos instead of shoehorns.