Lookjudging the Race Builder rules

[A Man In Black]

All of these comments are predicated on the idea that players will only play Standard races.

Are these player-facing rules or not? Right now, it's trivial to make races that completely outperform core races, and too often the least-interesting abilities (skill bonuses languages) are too expensive. Degenerate builds that focus on stacking one particular attribute are also too easy. With so few points and "flavor" abilities priced so dear, players have no incentive whatsoever to diversify. A lot of these problems are lessened slightly if these are GM-focused rules, but then so does any appeal that this ruleset might have, since GMs can already eyeball their own homebrew and do about as well as these rules can.

The stat modifiers favor casting classes heavily. For almost every martial class, maximizing a mental stat is rarely a concern, and in many cases an afterthought. Likewise, most martial classes need all of str/con/dex, and cannot easily bear a penalty to one of them. This would make for interesting tension, except for the fact that spellcasting classes can easily manage either Greater Paragon Modifiers or Weakness Modifiers by putting the penalties in dumped stats. Clerics, druids, bards, and similar classes don't mind splitting their bonuses between mental and physical, and non-martial casters like wizards, sorcerers, witches, and summoners have three or four dump stats to take advantage of whatever they can get. I'm not sure how to fix this system, but it magnifies existing MAD/SAD problems.

Stats are too stackable. If you're a pure spellcaster, stacking Advanced Abilities is just too degenerate. Starting the game with 25+ int/wis/cha is unreasonable. Heck, starting the game north of 22 str is going to cause early-game issues, especially when that's affordable on a large frame. Absolutely nothing can make DC 18 saves at level 1, and whomping things for 3d6+9 at level 1 is also going to cause issues.

Stats are overly complicated. I understand that you want to keep people from just making races with all pluses to physical stats to cheese out martial characters, but the current method of doing so is a mess. Flexible Modifiers is overpriced (compared to Standard and Weakness), and Mixed Weakness is incredibly awkwardly written. It's not possible to make a race with no bonuses or penalties or a race with two -2 physical or two -2 mental weaknesses without dipping into the (very expensive) Advanced Ability traits, as seen in this example.

Point costs are arbitrary. AC costs seem to have been chosen at random, so it's very difficult to try to tell where the benchmarks are. Contrast Ancient Foe, Greater Defensive Training, and Natural Armor. Contrast Cat's Luck, Dual-Minded, Halfling Luck, Plagueborn, and Hardy. Contrast Fey Damage Resistance and Damage Reduction (and Skeletal Damage Reduction, for that matter). Contrast Gnome Magic and Svirfneblin Magic with Spell-Like Ability. Contrast Sneaky Rider, Sneaky, Underground Sneak, and the other omnibus skill traits, which I can't be bothered to list. Contrast Spell Resistance with anything. This not only means that the point costs are meaningless, but also makes this useless to a GM as a guide for making their own races. For example, it tells me sparkle elves (with their +8 int, SR, and bonus to beat spell resist) are balanced with standard goblins.

I have some other problems, but these are the core ones.

[see]

A Man In Black wrote:

All of these comments are predicated on the idea that players will only play Standard races.

In that case, the following doesn't apply:

A Man In Black wrote:

Stats are too stackable. If you're a pure spellcaster, stacking Advanced Abilities is just too degenerate.

Advanced Abilities, being Advanced, are not available to Standard races.

[Realmwalker]

A Man In Black wrote:

All of these comments are predicated on the idea that players will only play Standard races.

The stat modifiers favor casting classes heavily. For almost every martial class, maximizing a mental stat is rarely a concern, and in many cases an afterthought. Likewise, most martial classes need all of str/con/dex, and cannot easily bear a penalty to one of them. This would make for interesting tension, except for the fact that spellcasting classes can easily manage either Greater Paragon Modifiers or Weakness Modifiers by putting the penalties in dumped stats. Clerics, druids, bards, and similar classes don't mind splitting their bonuses between mental and physical, and non-martial casters like wizards, sorcerers, witches, and summoners have three or four dump stats to take advantage of whatever they can get. I'm not sure how to fix this system, but it magnifies existing MAD/SAD problems.

I don't see how +2 Str +2 Con favors Casters more than fighters or +4 Str -2 Int -2 Wis -2 Cha, or +4 Str -2 Dex -2 Cha each of these are easily done and all of them favor fighters/barbarians the first screams Monk as well.

As far as Sparkle Elves are concerned they take two advanced choices which makes them an advanced race not a standard race which Goblins are. By definition Advanced races are superior to Standard ones. So lose advanced Intelligence twice and guese what your point becomes null and void.

It seems to me that many people are not reading the playtest therefore adding advanced traits to Standard races then calling it broken much like every summoner thread that I have read claiming summoners are overpowered only to be disproven when you find out they did not follow the rules when building thier Eidolon.

So far I have built 10 different Standard Races they don't look any more powerful than any other race I have seen from Core to 3pp. Saturday I'm running a full playtest using one of the Tier 1 PFS Adventures Using a Human as the control and will go from there.

[Shuriken Nekogami]

i built 1 balanced standard martially focused race with a single minor 1 point advanced ability that should have been avaialable to the standard races anyway. it's not really that overpowered. it actualy turned out not too much better than the standard races as an offensively focused fighter. and it doesn't abuse many of the loopholes.

[Realmwalker]

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

i built 1 balanced standard martially focused race with a single minor 1 point advanced ability that should have been avaialable to the standard races anyway. it's not really that overpowered. it actualy turned out not too much better than the standard races as an offensively focused fighter. and it doesn't abuse many of the loopholes.

I seen you race and it was well built. I was just mentioning to the OP that you can not slam a system because you created a race that did not even try to go by the actual RAW but just stacked a trait that it wasn't supposed to and claimed that it was broken.

What you did was something I would do I took a trait that may not have legal but worked well with a concept I wanted for my game.

A GM would be crazy to allow a build that was a one sided super stacked build.
Half Yoma
Standard Race
Outsider (native) (2 RP)
Subtype: Fiend
• Native outsiders have the darkvision 60 ft. racial ability.
• Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
Medium (0 RP): Medium races have no bonuses or
penalties due to their size. A Medium creature has a space
of 5 feet by 5 feet and a reach of 5 feet.
Normal Speed (0 RP): The race has a base speed of 30 feet.
Flexible Modifiers (2 RP): +2 Str +2 Dex
Fiendish Resistances (2 RP): You gain the following resistances Cold 5, Electricity 5, and Fire 5
Spell-Like Ability (3 RP): Choose 1 first level spell you may use that spell 3/day. The caster level of the spell is equal to the character level of the user.
Weapon Familiarity (1 RP): Members of this race are proficient with great swords.
Language Standard Array (1 RP): Abyssal, Common; Bonus Languages Aklo, Celestial, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Infernal
Total RP: 11
This build may be a little OP but I had a reason for the Spell-Like ability being random as each Half Yoma should have different powers.
The Idea was borrowed from the Claymore Anime.

[Shuriken Nekogami]

Realmwalker wrote:

Half Yoma
Standard Race
Outsider (native) (2 RP)
Subtype: Fiend
• Native outsiders have the darkvision 60 ft. racial ability.
• Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
Medium (0 RP): Medium races have no bonuses or
penalties due to their size. A Medium creature has a space
of 5 feet by 5 feet and a reach of 5 feet.
Normal Speed (0 RP): The race has a base speed of 30 feet.
Flexible Modifiers (2 RP): +2 Str +2 Dex
Fiendish Resistances (2 RP): You gain the following resistances Cold 5, Electricity 5, and Fire 5
Spell-Like Ability (3 RP): Choose 1 first level spell you may use that spell 3/day. The caster level of the spell is equal to the character level of the user.
Weapon Familiarity (1 RP): Members of this race are proficient with great swords.
Language Standard Array (1 RP): Abyssal, Common; Bonus Languages Aklo, Celestial, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Infernal
Total RP: 11
This build may be a little OP but I had a reason for the Spell-Like ability being random as each Half Yoma should have different powers.
The Idea was borrowed from the Claymore Anime.

quite an interesting race. i'd love to play it in your game one day. maybe as a martial artist archtype monk with 3 castings of mage armor.

may i steal this?

[Realmwalker]

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

Realmwalker wrote:

Half Yoma
Standard Race
Outsider (native) (2 RP)
Subtype: Fiend
• Native outsiders have the darkvision 60 ft. racial ability.
• Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
Medium (0 RP): Medium races have no bonuses or
penalties due to their size. A Medium creature has a space
of 5 feet by 5 feet and a reach of 5 feet.
Normal Speed (0 RP): The race has a base speed of 30 feet.
Flexible Modifiers (2 RP): +2 Str +2 Dex
Fiendish Resistances (2 RP): You gain the following resistances Cold 5, Electricity 5, and Fire 5
Spell-Like Ability (3 RP): Choose 1 first level spell you may use that spell 3/day. The caster level of the spell is equal to the character level of the user.
Weapon Familiarity (1 RP): Members of this race are proficient with great swords.
Language Standard Array (1 RP): Abyssal, Common; Bonus Languages Aklo, Celestial, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Infernal
Total RP: 11
This build may be a little OP but I had a reason for the Spell-Like ability being random as each Half Yoma should have different powers.
The Idea was borrowed from the Claymore Anime.

quite an interesting race. i'd love to play it in your game one day. maybe as a martial artist archtype monk with 3 castings of mage armor.

may i steal this?

Go ahead. It is going to be one of the ones I use for my Saturday playtest.

[Shuriken Nekogami]

where do you live? my group is currently on hold until january because they were the recent victims of a few armed robberies. or can we do an online playtest as well?

[Realmwalker]

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

where do you live? my group is currently on hold until january because they were the recent victims of a few armed robberies. or can we do an online playtest as well?

Independence KS

[Shuriken Nekogami]

Realmwalker wrote:

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

where do you live? my group is currently on hold until january because they were the recent victims of a few armed robberies. or can we do an online playtest as well?

Independence KS

i live in Sacramento California, guess we will have to do an online playtest.

[Realmwalker]

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

Realmwalker wrote:

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

where do you live? my group is currently on hold until january because they were the recent victims of a few armed robberies. or can we do an online playtest as well?

Independence KS

i live in Sacramento California, guess we will have to do an online playtest.

lol we would have welcomed you here though. we have a GM and three players here. I have not done a lot of online stuff.

[A Man In Black]

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't derail this thread.

see wrote:

Advanced Abilities, being Advanced, are not available to Standard races.

This has been pointed out to me elsewhere, and it's a fair point. It doesn't significantly change the rest of my observations, though.

Realmwalker wrote:

I don't see how +2 Str +2 Con favors Casters more than fighters or +4 Str -2 Int -2 Wis -2 Cha, or +4 Str -2 Dex -2 Cha each of these are easily done and all of them favor fighters/barbarians the first screams Monk as well.

A penalty to dex or wisdom is painful for any martial class, while a boost to a mental stat is of limited value (save in the case of monks and paladins). They pay an appreciable price for a +4 or two +2s in physical stats: either three RP or penalties in stats they'd rather not dump. By contrast, a non-fighty spellcaster can always dump str and wis/cha for a +4 in a casting stat, and fighty spellcasters can easily afford a -4 in a dump stat for +2 to a physical and +2 to their caster stat. The idea that two physical bonuses is somehow more valuable than a physical and a mental bonus inherently favors spellcasters (and the rare nonspellcasters who have significant mental-stat-based abilities).

You mention that you've made 10 non-overpowered races. You could make 100 and it would prove nothing. The problem is that there's a fairly wide gulf between optimized races and non-optimized races, and this is undesirable unless you really want the optimized races to be the only options.

Realmwalker wrote:

A GM would be crazy to allow a build that was a one sided super stacked build.

Are these GM-facing rules or player-facing rules?

If the former, why the rigid ruleset? This sort of point system is always going to handle synergy awkwardly; contrast the Hulks with any race ever, for pure martial characters. Any optimized race is going to have a large advantage over a non-optimized race, so why not just leave it to the GM to set their own power level, with some advice on how to do so?

If the latter, this is a trainwreck. The results aren't within a light-year of being balanced. Players who use them are going to have a huge advantage over players who don't. In this, again, the point system—indeed, the whole system—will only cause inter-player squabbles.

[Realmwalker]

These rules are for the GM mostly, players may use with GM permission and oversight. ie the GM decides if he wants to allow it in his game. Killing the whole train wreck thing as a GM would have to be out of his mind to let a Munchkin abuse the rules.

The key to building a good race, try not to build something you "want" to play. That is why I don't make Monkey Races, I would over do it. But if a player went up to me and said I want to play a person that was attack by a zombie but never fully turned I could do it. Since I'm the one building the race I know it is with in the power level I want to include. These rules help me do this and do a good job at it.

[Realmwalker]

A Man In Black wrote:

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't derail this thread.

see wrote:

Advanced Abilities, being Advanced, are not available to Standard races.

This has been pointed out to me elsewhere, and it's a fair point. It doesn't significantly change the rest of my observations, though.

Realmwalker wrote:

I don't see how +2 Str +2 Con favors Casters more than fighters or +4 Str -2 Int -2 Wis -2 Cha, or +4 Str -2 Dex -2 Cha each of these are easily done and all of them favor fighters/barbarians the first screams Monk as well.

A penalty to dex or wisdom is painful for any martial class, while a boost to a mental stat is of limited value (save in the case of monks and paladins). They pay an appreciable price for a +4 or two +2s in physical stats: either three RP or penalties in stats they'd rather not dump. By contrast, a non-fighty spellcaster can always dump str and wis/cha for a +4 in a casting stat, and fighty spellcasters can easily afford a -4 in a dump stat for +2 to a physical and +2 to their caster stat. The idea that two physical bonuses is somehow more valuable than a physical and a mental bonus inherently favors spellcasters (and the rare nonspellcasters who have significant mental-stat-based abilities).

You mention that you've made 10 non-overpowered races. You could make 100 and it would prove nothing. The problem is that there's a fairly wide gulf between optimized races and non-optimized races, and this is undesirable unless you really want the optimized races to be the only options.

Realmwalker wrote:

A GM would be crazy to allow a build that was a one sided super stacked build.

Are these GM-facing rules or player-facing rules?

If the former, why the rigid ruleset? This sort of point system is always going to handle synergy awkwardly; contrast the Hulks with any race ever, for pure martial characters. Any optimized race is going to have a large advantage over a non-optimized race, so why not just leave it to the GM to set their own power level, with some...

You have your opinion and I choose to disagree.

You look at it from a PLAYER mind set this is NOT what this rule set is designed for. These rules are not intended for player use but for the GM to add races into his or her campaign world, players may use them if the GM allows it and the GM has the final say as to whether or not it is used. It was pretty clear in the Playtest and the Dev made it clear in several threads.

Dose this do what it is intended to do? Yes it helps the GM make balanced race choices to add homebrew races in his or her game.

Is it perfect? No, nothing is, as you said Munchkins can abuse it (If the GM is easily bullied into letting it happen). Give me a half hour and ANY point based system and I can abuse it that is the nature of point buy.

Is it easy to use? Very much so.

[A Man In Black]

Realmwalker wrote:

These rules are for the GM mostly, players may use with GM permission and oversight. ie the GM decides if he wants to allow it in his game. Killing the whole train wreck thing as a GM would have to be out of his mind to let a Munchkin abuse the rules.

The key to building a good race, try not to build something you "want" to play. That is why I don't make Monkey Races, I would over do it. But if a player went up to me and said I want to play a person that was attack by a zombie but never fully turned I could do it. Since I'm the one building the race I know it is with in the power level I want to include. These rules help me do this and do a good job at it.

The point system doesn't help you do a good job, because it gives misleading results. You keep repeating "This helps the GM build balanced results," except that totally doesn't, because it's trivially easy to build imbalanced races. This system has a bunch of burdensome rules in order to somehow protect balance, but still relies on the GM to take a strong hand in making sure that races aren't imbalanced. That's a failure of design. It could be easier to use, if it had a point system that actually worked, or if it were simpler and focused on general guidance rather than misleading point scores.

You can have your opinion all you like, but it's entirely valueless unless you can properly support it.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Its been pointed out loudly on many threads the point values need fixed and the false points to make the core races equal 10 hurt and undermine the system. They even hide slow and steady and you get it for -1 RP if your medium sized.

I also feel advanced abilities need to go, they seem to be there solely for making super races and serve no real point other then making super races.

[Matthew Trent]

I like the advanced races. It seems to me they work well for building mostly humanish dudes who are strictly better. Akin to the drow nobles you'd only let one be played if everyone was simularly powered. See my loxodon thread for a thought process on building one.

[Realmwalker]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Its been pointed out loudly on many threads the point values need fixed and the false points to make the core races equal 10 hurt and undermine the system. They even hide slow and steady and you get it for -1 RP if your medium sized.

I also feel advanced abilities need to go, they seem to be there solely for making super races and serve no real point other then making super races.

And that has been acknowledged by the Devs in this as well.

I personally like the tier system that this uses it allows me easier access to build slightly more powerful NPC races. It is very useful for Humanoid Monster design. Not every race should be intended for PC use. This is supposed to be a DM tool not PC tool so being able to create advanced and monstrous races need to be covered.

[ValorOfArms777]

instead of this "single ability score array" allow a per point minus array so for example

+2 1 RP 1st is free unless you have another stat add any more is a -2 to another stat with no RP minus
+4 3 RP and must take a -2 to another stat with no RP minus
0 no add
-2 -1 RP max 3 times
-4 -2 RP max 2 times

Max plus is depending upon the 3 categories of standard advanced and monstrous of say max +4 standard +8 and +10 monstrous

example from a pure 10 scale lvl 1 monstrous

STR +4 (3 RP)
DEX -6 (-2 from +4 STR add)(-2 from CON add)(-2 from +2 CON add)
CON +6 (3 RP)(+2 general)
INT 0
WIS 0
CHA 0

hopefully that's understandable more so and allows a GM effectively to design a monster they wish with a more focused additive while still not breaking up the game badly because even the monsters in the manual have "specialized stats" and still has to take a massive minus in someplace making that their weakness zone every character has a weakness zone and it's just unavoidable just how you exploit it be it this setup has a good STR and CON he SUCKS at say reflex saves and touch attacks

next there's a few things missing like

attack augmentations of natural attacks or manufactured weapons would be GREAT like adamantine, silver, alignments, and elements which adds diversity to the attacks example a adamantine attack wouldn't be so bad if it was the natural attacks had it but high costing RP

DR is measured oddly as a DR 5 is more of a advanced monster trait while you can make the DR 10 a monstrous trait and you forgot and add past DR alignments would be adamantine and there is no bludgeoning/piercing/slashing DRs which is also a bit strange

so your missing DR adamantine-slashing-piercing-bludgeoning

next your missing Dragon type which would help to add in

the ability limit I agree on just fine but some of the advanced are a bit over judged as advanced

look through the monsters you made all over and add in that pool of course but also

Large Build-treated as large for advantageous situations like wielding weapons or resisting grappling but not damage which is opposing of what the centaurs have permitting certain creatures to be medium with a large size ability (I really miss it from 3.5 and it was a very nice ability but not broken)

Advanced Prehensile Tail-can wield weapons and attack with the tail with a -5 and counts as a secondary natural attack