So I've decided to finally take a look at it. Am I the only one who's noticed how weird the RP costs are? Let's take a look:
Skill Bonus (+2 to specific skill chosen by race) - 2 RP
Adaptability (Skill Focus feat which grants +3 [+6 at 20 ranks] to skill of choice) - 1 RP
Bonus Feat (choose a feat [which could be Skill Focus]) - 4 RP
A feat is half the worth of a half feat...
I understand that you were trying to make the core races look balanced (which they aren't really). Let's actually analyze the Human. What makes the human so valuable? Is it the bonus feat? Well other races get special abilities, many which can't even be obtained through a feat. Is it the skill point every level? Well guess what, a +2 Int also grants an extra skill point every level, as well as boost class features.
I often read that human is the most powerful race, but it isn't really. What makes it popular is customization. Most of the other races are angled to be better at specific classes because stats and abilities; the human it can be anything. I admit the bonus feat is really good, but half-elf is better if you ever decide to take Eldritch Heritage.
Sure the classes get along with each other just fine without really stepping on each other's toes, but when a race is built for a specific class or build, the human gets stepped all over. Then it gets into GM discretion territory. If the races fall under GM discretion anyway, why make arbitrary rules to pretend like all the core races are equal in terms of point cost. (I've played games where Aasimar and Tieflings were PCs, they weren't stronger than the other PCs).
Just because something is of a lower point build doesn't mean players won't take it. While the other races are better geared for certain build, a human can be built into anything. The more options you have, the more you can mix and match, the less attractive the human is. At that point, what makes the human attractive is RP reasons.
I agree with that. And I'd go as far to say that humans are the worse base race there is. But a lot of people will play it cause they don't like "monsters" I see it ALL the time.
I think all abilities should be available to all characters without "racial" pre-req either, cause how r u gonna create a race, if u need a sub race?
MAYBE make it cheaper to certain races?
Again, Spell-resistance is WAY too cheap. And I think the Feat is a high cost, compared to other stuff.
The costs for skill-related abilities are all over the place. For instance, there's no way that +2 to Appraise checks vs. nonmagical metals and gemstones is worth 1 RP; seriously, that's worth nothing at all, especially compared to Stonecunning (that's also worth 1 RP, supposedly).
The problem is that not all feats are equal. Some of the abilities which cost less are better than some feats. Take Gnome Magic which grants 4 cantrips and a bonus to DC; it costs 1 RP. O.o
Don't get me wrong; I love humans. Humans are like a blank sheet while the other races are like sheets with a background already colored and possibly using paints that I'll never be able to get my hands on. I prefer the blank sheets because it allows me to draw what I want on it and come out just as I envisioned it, but I'd never suggest that the blank sheet and the one with a background already painted on are worth the same price (and especially not worth more).
The extra skill point per level being 4 RP is especially egregious because Flexible modifiers worth 2 RP is just outright better all the time.
What is RP, is this the hidden formula behind the scenes or something?
RP = Racial Points
They're used to supposedly appraise the value of a race
The costs for skill-related abilities are all over the place. For instance, there's no way that +2 to Appraise checks vs. nonmagical metals and gemstones is worth 1 RP; seriously, that's worth nothing at all, especially compared to Stonecunning (that's also worth 1 RP, supposedly).
I don't think there's anyway for me to see the RP values as anything more than a thin veil to make the core races equal to the same exact value: 10 RP.
The true issue is that an ability cannot have its cost measured on its own. Some abilities have synergy, some don't. The worth of abilities is dependent on so much, the player, the build, and most important: the campaign. The costs are arbitrary. Races need to be evaluated as a whole; One that focuses on boosts to one class is clearly stronger than one that gives a little martial boost here, a magical boost there, and a skill boost somewhere else. A race that uses customization as appeal, loses it when there is a race that provides that which used to require customization as a default and throws a little something extra in with it.
Look at the Kobold: 4 RP; 4 RP for being crafty... Remove it and the kobold becomes 0 RP.
I played in a game with a Kobold sorcerer who never once made a trap, I can honestly say that the kobold was just as valuable and not at all a liability in combat as any of the human characters without racial modifications (out of combat, it was a liability if anyone found out his gnome disguise was an illusion).
I don't think there's anyway for me to see the RP values as anything more than a thin veil to make the core races equal to the same exact value: 10 RP.
I, too, believe this is exactly what is happening here.
The costs for skill-related abilities are all over the place. For instance, there's no way that +2 to Appraise checks vs. nonmagical metals and gemstones is worth 1 RP; seriously, that's worth nothing at all, especially compared to Stonecunning (that's also worth 1 RP, supposedly).I don't think there's anyway for me to see the RP values as anything more than a thin veil to make the core races equal to the same exact value: 10 RP.
The true issue is that an ability cannot have its cost measured on its own. Some abilities have synergy, some don't. The worth of abilities is dependent on so much, the player, the build, and most important: the campaign. The costs are arbitrary. Races need to be evaluated as a whole; One that focuses on boosts to one class is clearly stronger than one that gives a little martial boost here, a magical boost there, and a skill boost somewhere else. A race that uses customization as appeal, loses it when there is a race that provides that which used to require customization as a default and throws a little something extra in with it.
Look at the Kobold: 4 RP; 4 RP for being crafty... Remove it and the kobold becomes 0 RP.
I played in a game with a Kobold sorcerer who never once made a trap, I can honestly say that the kobold was just as valuable and not at all a liability in combat as any of the human characters without racial modifications (out of combat, it was a liability if anyone found out his gnome disguise was an illusion).
It was tough to leave out the problem with synergies and antisynergies in my thread that tries to focus on the abilities one at a time to find inconsistencies or issues (join it here and add any you've found that I missed!). I completely agree that synergies are key. Elves, for example, would be a god race for Wizards if they had a -2 Str instead of the antisynergistic -2 Con. Changelings get two mental abilities that only a cleric can really use in a synergistic way, without raising the mental ability that the most flavorful connected class (Witch) uses for spells.
And that's just ability scores--when you add in the ability to design a suite of other abilities, you run into bigger issues. The ability to deflect ranged attacks and make more powerful ranged attacks of your own is more useful if you, say, can fly.
I don't think there's anyway for me to see the RP values as anything more than a thin veil to make the core races equal to the same exact value: 10 RP.
Totally this!
Just look at the dwarf. Everything he has has been made that cheap to make it work out with 10 points.
The Bonus Feat for 4 points is ok in my eyes.
But the bonus skillpoint for 4?
I'd rather take Advanced Intelligence for +2 Intelligence which also costs 4 but also gives bonus int checks and bonus to DCs (int based ones) as well as a bonus language and more bonus spells.
To be fixed the dwarf would have to end up as a 12 RP and the human as a 8 RP. Then we would probably see balanced traits.
But with this? Everyone wants +Con and Hardy costs 1 point? Lol.
So I've decided to finally take a look at it. Am I the only one who's noticed how weird the RP costs are? Let's take a look:
Skill Bonus (+2 to specific skill chosen by race) - 2 RP
Adaptability (Skill Focus feat which grants +3 [+6 at 20 ranks] to skill of choice) - 1 RP
Bonus Feat (choose a feat [which could be Skill Focus]) - 4 RPA feat is half the worth of a half feat...
I understand that you were trying to make the core races look balanced (which they aren't really). Let's actually analyze the Human. What makes the human so valuable? Is it the bonus feat? Well other races get special abilities, many which can't even be obtained through a feat. Is it the skill point every level? Well guess what, a +2 Int also grants an extra skill point every level, as well as boost class features.
I often read that human is the most powerful race, but it isn't really. What makes it popular is customization. Most of the other races are angled to be better at specific classes because stats and abilities; the human it can be anything. I admit the bonus feat is really good, but half-elf is better if you ever decide to take Eldritch Heritage.
Sure the classes get along with each other just fine without really stepping on each other's toes, but when a race is built for a specific class or build, the human gets stepped all over. Then it gets into GM discretion territory. If the races fall under GM discretion anyway, why make arbitrary rules to pretend like all the core races are equal in terms of point cost. (I've played games where Aasimar and Tieflings were PCs, they weren't stronger than the other PCs).
Just because something is of a lower point build doesn't mean players won't take it. While the other races are better geared for certain build, a human can be built into anything. The more options you have, the more you can mix and match, the less attractive the human is. At that point, what makes the human attractive is RP reasons.
Customization is powerful though. That is the issue with the eidolon. Another thing is that the extra feat allows you early entry into PrC's, and you get the best things first. At low levels races with low light, or even darkvision have a good advantage, but later on darkvision is really easy to get so it does not matter as much.
As an example if we both have archers the human will get manyshot or deadly aim earlier. Even without the ability to see in the dark a light source will be there, and you could get jumped by monsters seeing your light source in the distance, but that is a rarity as far as I know, and once again darkvision can be obtained if needed easily later one. The advantage of getting the feat and extra skill point never goes away.
I agree with that. And I'd go as far to say that humans are the worse base race there is. But a lot of people will play it cause they don't like "monsters" I see it ALL the time.
I think all abilities should be available to all characters without "racial" pre-req either, cause how r u gonna create a race, if u need a sub race?
MAYBE make it cheaper to certain races?
Again, Spell-resistance is WAY too cheap. And I think the Feat is a high cost, compared to other stuff.
I think SR is a crap ability, for PC's that is. You have to spend a standard action to lower it, other wise everyone might get the buff except for you. If you could decide who got an SR pass, the same way you can choose to fail saving throws it would be a lot better.
I do agree with the declaration that not all core race are equal. Instead of saying all the core races are 10 points, they should be given a spread of maybe 8 to 12 points. I would have to go back to the guide and see if that works, but dwarves are a really good race IMHO.
I think SR is a crap ability, for PC's that is. You have to spend a standard action to lower it, other wise everyone might get the buff except for you. If you could decide who got an SR pass, the same way you can choose to fail saving throws it would be a lot better.I agree with that. And I'd go as far to say that humans are the worse base race there is. But a lot of people will play it cause they don't like "monsters" I see it ALL the time.
I think all abilities should be available to all characters without "racial" pre-req either, cause how r u gonna create a race, if u need a sub race?
MAYBE make it cheaper to certain races?
Again, Spell-resistance is WAY too cheap. And I think the Feat is a high cost, compared to other stuff.
I played with SR more then once, it saved my life a lot of times. When I wasn't the party buffer, it hindered me sometimes, but when I was the party buffer it was wicked powerful, cause you don't have to bypass your own SR, remember that.