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Some of them are easy enough:
Flexible with its +2 to any two; Human Heritage with the free-floating +2; and Standard with +2 to any mental, +2 to any physical, -2 to any other are straight and to the point.
But then there are the others, which require more careful reading.
Advanced is two different types.
Physical is +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 mental, -2 other mental
Mental is +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, +4 physical, -2 other physical
It's weird that they get small bonuses in everything from one category, but the other is hit or miss. So the Xwanzthl (a new race whose name I just made up) is a bit stronger, more agile and tougher than humans. On the mental side, it's not so uniform - funnily, they're a lot smarter than humans, but just as wise, and a little less charming.
Why not a race with +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int -2 Wis?
So give them +2 to all scores of one category, +2 to one of the other category, -2 to another of the other category, and then raise any one +2 to +4?
And then there's the extra modifier: You can raise ability scores further, but that costs 4 per +2. I get that this would allow for really high bonuses and should thus be more expensive (so if someone wants that +6 to dex or something, he's going to pay through his nose to hit), but that means that everything that isn't already explicitly covered in the standard modifier arrays is going to be extremely expensive.
Say you want a race that is just a tad weaker than a standard race (+2/+2/-2/-2). You'd have to go with mixed weakness (+2/+2/-2/-4) add +2 to the -4 score, which means you now have blown one of your possible abilities for this AND paid as much as the race that gets a straight +2/+2.
Since this is already a bit of a post. I'll put my suggested solutions in a separate post.
My ideas for solutions:
First, let's clean up the standard choices.
Those remain the baseline, of course. But now for the rest:
And now, for the finishing touch: Adjustments! You can add one of these to each of the options above. Human Heritage might be exempt from these.
Example: Weakness becomes (-2): +2 physical +2 mental, -2 physical, -2 mental, -2 other mental
Example: Lesser Weakness becomes (-1): +2 physical, +2 mental, -4 to any other
Example: Standard Modifiers become (+1) +2 physical, +2 mental, +2 any other, -2 to any two others.
Example: Flexible Becomes (+3) +2 to any three, -2 to another
Example: Weakness becomes (0): +2 mental/+2 physical/+2 any/-2 physical/-4 mental (or vice versa)
Possible Special: If any option has a limitation that forces all of its bonuses, or all of its penalties to be from the same category, the Adjustments must stick to that.
That way, there are more options for modifiers without having too big a list, and the +4 cost for a blanket +2 to an ability score can be kept.
And we really don't need 6 different boosters. Just say ability boost +2 (4RP). Can be taken multiple times, for the same or for different abilities.
I would like to see the following option:
Nonstandard (1 RP*): +2 to any two ability scores, -2 to one ability score.
*+2 to two scores with no penalties is 2 RP, +2 to one physical and one mental with -2 to one ability is 0, so I think that paying 1 RP for having option of two strong physical or two strong mental abilities is right.
I would like to see the following option:
Nonstandard (1 RP*): +2 to any two ability scores, -2 to one ability score.
*+2 to two scores with no penalties is 2 RP, +2 to one physical and one mental with -2 to one ability is 0, so I think that paying 1 RP for having option of two strong physical or two strong mental abilities is right.
I'd go as far as to say 0 RP would be right for that.
I'm starting to think that they should remove this part altogether, creates a lot of confusion, and you can't create certain characters with it. Let alone how Templates would be "overpriced"
How am I suposed to create an Azlanti without it being Advanced?
Many example races are "Flexible" but in fact they have fixed scores, like the Aasimar, it should be priced diferent at least.
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As opposed to saying +x to one group and +y to the other group which is a bit confusing. I think the descriptions would be clearer if they referred to primary group and secondary group. The player decides whether Physical or Mental is the primary group and the other group is then the secondary group. The following could be added to the start of the section to introduce the primary and secondary group concept.
"The modifier traits will refer to the primary group and secondary group. You choose the primary group of stats which can be either all physical stats (STR, DEX, CON) or all mental stats (INT, WIS, CHA). The secondary group is then the group of stats which was not selected as primary."
As an example of the effect here is the Advanced Modifiers trait rewritten using primary and secondary group.
"Gain a +2 to all scores of the primary group, a +4 to one score from the secondary group, and -2 to another score from the secondary group."
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I'm starting to think that they should remove this part altogether, creates a lot of confusion, and you can't create certain characters with it. Let alone how Templates would be "overpriced"
How am I suposed to create an Azlanti without it being Advanced?
Many example races are "Flexible" but in fact they have fixed scores, like the Aasimar, it should be priced diferent at least.
The Azlanti is supposed to be an advanced race from my understanding. Similar to how the Noble Drow is an advanced race option.
The Aasimar was created using the Flexible Modifiers trait. The two stats are chosen when the race is created not when the character is created. The Human Heritage trait specifically mentions that the stat is chosen when the character is created
I'm starting to think that they should remove this part altogether, creates a lot of confusion, and you can't create certain characters with it. Let alone how Templates would be "overpriced"
How am I suposed to create an Azlanti without it being Advanced?
Many example races are "Flexible" but in fact they have fixed scores, like the Aasimar, it should be priced diferent at least.
Note that flexible is supposed to be two specific attributes. The option lets you set these two scores for your race when you create the race. Only Human Heritage is supposed to be a free-floating +2 you can choose individually for each character.
So Flexible means stuff like "+2 Wis, +2 Cha" or "+2 Dex, +2 Con", not "+2 to any two ability scores you can choose at character creation"
But there is great justice in what you say: Maybe there should not be several pre-selected options like "paragon" and "advanced", but rather a point system.
Something like this:
You start with +2/+2/-2, or alternately a free-floating +2 (which might mean you cannot modify it further).
Then you can modify this further:
Adding bonuses costs more than adding penalties earns you because bonuses are usually more advantageous than penalties are disadvantageous.
If they're married to the concept that advanced and monstrous races get stuff for cheaper, there could be discount of some sorts.
Let's look how my more variable approach compares to the ideas presented as options (All based on the +2/+2/-2 standard):
I like KaeYoss proposal. One thing that I would initially change would be increasing point cost of improving +2 bonus to +4 bonus to at least 3 RP, maybe more.
I would like unification of ability score determination for races instead of separating it into set of modifiers on page 7 and advanced ability score traits at page 8. However, buying bonuses higher than +2 should have its cost increased with each additional +2.
I like KaeYoss proposal. One thing that I would initially change would be increasing point cost of improving +2 bonus to +4 bonus to at least 3 RP, maybe more.
I would like unification of ability score determination for races instead of separating it into set of modifiers on page 7 and advanced ability score traits at page 8. However, buying bonuses higher than +2 should have its cost increased with each additional +2.
I mostly agree with this. Not sure about the +2 statement though. RP is off, it will certainly be modified and increased to double I guess.
My proposal to Paizo is that they get the worse ability there, say, +2 situational to a skill (Greedy for instance)and set it at +1, and build up from that.
When is the second playtesting coming anyway?
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It is all a little confusing, especially since they're grouped and organized alphabetically by their name, which has not real meaning or bearing,
It might be nice to dump the names (excluding human and standard) and grouping by RP bonus instead. The "names" might be a summary of the bonuses I.e. +2[physical], -2[all mental] or +2[physical/mental].
I also want to know what a one-sided bonus would be, such as +2 to two physical stats and -2 to a mental stat. That strikes me as something that will be common in race design.
I also want to know what a one-sided bonus would be, such as +2 to two physical stats and -2 to a mental stat. That strikes me as something that will be common in race design.
i hope it's the same as the standard. this way i can shave the Nekogami point cost by throwing in a Charisma penalty.
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i hope it's the same as the standard. this way i can shave the Nekogami point cost by throwing in a Charisma penalty.
I also want to know what a one-sided bonus would be, such as +2 to two physical stats and -2 to a mental stat. That strikes me as something that will be common in race design.
Maybe... but +2 physical, +2 mental, -2 something has become a big part of designing core races as it enables races to work equally in martial classes as magical.
A race with +2 to two physical and -2 to another physical or -2 to a mental would be very different and stacked to one role. A +2 Int, +2 Cha, -2 Con race would be interesting but might be too potent for spell-casting classes. But I don't know if it's so potent an advantage to be worth 1 RP.
it's not worth an RP.
and +2 Str +2 Dex -2 Cha isn't worth an RP either. it's a minor advantage for Switch hitters.
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it's not worth an RP.
and +2 Str +2 Dex -2 Cha isn't worth an RP either. it's a minor advantage for Switch hitters.
But now you have created a race that all combat oriented characters will be, this includes fighters, barbarians, rogues, rangers, monks, magus, and some paladins. This is much more than a minor advantage to switch hitters, this is a:
+1 Melee Attack+1 Melee Damage
+1 Ranged Attack
+1 AC
+1 Reflex
+1 Initiative
+1 CMB
+2 CMD
and I am sure I am missing some.
Which the core races do not do. As a fighter you would ask yourself: Do I want the +2 Str or +2 Dex? Do I want:
+1 Melee Attack
+1 Melee Damage
+1 CMB
+1 CMD
or do I want
+1 Ranged Attack
+1 AC
+1 Reflex
+1 Initiative
+1 CMD
One thing I noticed in the examples...the Greater Paragons in practice were +4 +2 and -2. Not +4 -2 -2.
about a Dex/Str race for fighters.
i am aware of the fighter synergy.
but casters only need one mental stat alongside dexterity and constitution.
casters benefit more from dexterity than martials do. because casters can do a lot more with thier actions. making initiative much more important to them.
they also get the same benefits from constitution as everyone else.
the funny thing is that the 2 universal stats that help everyone survive are both physical.
so the physical/mental spread favors casters.
halflings and gnomes make awesome sorcerers and elves make awesome wizards and that is just attribute bonuses there. dwarves make perfect druids and clerics for the same reason.
i don't see how giving martials access to a hypothetical strength/dexterity race will truly be that bad.
the difference between a -2 and a +2 to a casting stat is a whole four points you cannot make up.
lets look at the core. 4 caster races
Elf +2 int/dex -2 con, elven magic
Dwarf +2 wis/con -2 cha, hardy
Halfling +2 dex/cha -2 str small size, save bonus
Gnome +2 con/cha -2 str small size gnome magic
lets use my nekogami as an example. here is what they have that benefits martials in a similar vein to the 4 caster races
+2 str/dex -2 cha, dual minded, speed bonus
did i miss a caster race?
sorry, but if we count the human's favored class bonus and flexible stat bump, you have 5 core races that benefit casters.
oh wait, all the core races are designed favor spellcasters.
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The difference is that I have to choose between the races. Example:
As a sorcerer I want Cha. Now do I take Halfling for the Dex, Gnome for the Con, or Human for the flat bonus?
With yours it goes like this:
As a fighter I want (more than likely) Str. Now do I go with [Shuriken Nekogami Race] or Human? Do I need the feat, no. I go with [Shuriken Nekogami Race] every time. Same goes for almost every other martial class.
I get the Str for offense and the Dex for defense, the only stat that I am missing is Con. For a fighter no other stats are needed.
but casters only need one mental stat alongside dexterity and constitution.
Yes, caster's only need 1 stat for spells. But martials only need 1 stat for damage. I don't really see the difference. Defense is something that all characters need, saves are the same, as are skills.
casters benefit more from dexterity than martials do. because casters can do a lot more with thier actions. making initiative much more important to them.
And I don't really get how casters benefit from initiative more. One it has no bearing on the number of actions or how much they can do with them. Also beyond that I believe martials benefit from Dex as much as any caster:
Casters: Armor, Ranged Spells, Initiative, Reflex, Skills
Martials: Armor, Ranged Attacks, Initiative, Reflex, Skills
And martials are going to benefit more for the armor. A spellcaster will more than likely have a low armor class no matter what their Dex is without the aid of spells which beats armor anyways. And only certain spells require ranged attacks where as all martial ranged attacks require Dex.
lets look at the core. 4 caster races
The only races I would go so far and call a "caster" race are Elf and Gnome, mainly cause they get additional spellcasting abilities beyond stats. And every single one of them makes great other classes as well:
Elf +2 int/dex -2 con (Rangers, Archer Fighters, Rogues)
Dwarf +2 wis/con -2 cha (Fighters, Paladins, Monks, Barbarians)
Halfling +2 dex/cha -2 str (Rogues, Archer Fighters, Rangers)
Gnome +2 con/cha -2 str (Rogues, Barbarians, Rangers)
And the other 3 can be what ever you want. Your race would almost always be just martial. Do you see the imbalance now?
lets look at what casters this theoretical all martial race can still be built to do okay with, even if not the best with +2 Str +2 Dex -2 cha.
Cleric
Druid
Magus
Alchemist
Witch
Wizard
Sage or Empyreal Wildblood sorcerer
Inquisitor
bard
summoner
i know that most of these combos are highly unlikely, but they still do okay with the right focus.
You list the four spontaneous casters for a race with -2 Cha? They'd make pretty average Witches and Wizards too...
You list the four spontaneous casters for a race with -2 Cha? They'd make pretty average Witches and Wizards too...
sage or empyreal wildblood sorcerer swaps out charisma based casting for either intellegence based for sage or wisdom based for empyreal, turning charisma into a dumpstat, while still being a viable sorcerer.
bards and summoners aren't as dependant on charisma as one thinks. they can actually function with a starting 13 or 14 (after racial mods) and focus on thier combat attributes. thier heavy focus on buffs and utility spells makes save DCs less important.
clerics only use cha for channel energy and channel isn't so hot without blowing a ton of feats to make it barely work.
all the other casters i listed were martially inclined as well.
please note that i did not list oracle because that actually is quite charisma dependant.
a martial spellcaster is still technically a spellcaster. they just now have a martial secondary function as well.
it may be a little unbalanced, but it's not much different than elven wizards or gnome sorcerers.
To build on what KaeYoss said, I'll add the example of VoodooMike's guide, which has always seemed to me to be well-balanced:
Every race starts with either the floating +2 or a +2||+2/-2.
Improve a racial stat bonus from +2 to +4 - 10 points
Add a new +2 bonus to a stat that lacks it in a category that already has a bonus - 8 points
Negate -2 worth of racial stat penalty - 4 points
Switch a racial stat bonus to the other category. - 4 points
+2 to a stat in a category with no stat bonuses yet. - 4 points
-2 penalty to a stat that lacks a penalty in a category that has no existing penalties. - -4 points
-2 penalty to a stat that already has an adjustment (positive or negative). - -2 points
Negate racial bonus to one stat - -2 points
-2 penalty to a stat in a category where additional penalties have already been applied. - -1 points
What this does is make stacking benefits really expensive (10 points to stack on the same stat, 8 points to stack on the same category, or 4 points if you're sacrificing your bonus in the other category), and stacking penalties not particularly beneficial (only 1 point back if it's already in a lowered category, and 2 points back if it's already been lowered).
KaeYoss' system is simpler, but the idea is the same - you take a starting base and modify it to get what you want. The actual costs can be adjusted to be balanced with everything else, but it makes more sense than having a fixed list of pre-packaged options. Having some prepackaged examples is good, and they can have specific names, but they should just be examples, with the full mechanics for modifying them or building your own listed right next to them.
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I'll add my voice to those above; it does take a second pass to understand the options.
I get it, and many others get it, but given the advice threads on these boards over the last few years, there is definitely potential for (deliberate?) misunderstanding. A prime one being "If I take a -2 penalty, then buy a trait that gives me a +2 in the same stat, that means my -2 turns into a +2. Right?"
Players who look at your new race will be judging it on the final modifiers, not on how you came to calculate them.
And so, a set of mods should be costed on what benefits it gives, regardless of how its creator came to calculate them.
There shouldn't be an option to game that system, by choosing one route over another (whether that be starting with high array then trading down, vs starting with low array and buying up).
Nor should people be penalised for not spotting a non-intuitive method.
It's not intuitive to start by deliberately hobbling or ignoring a stat you intended your race to be good in, then hauling it back into positives with another trait.
Is there a reason the method doesn't more closely resemble character point-buy? You want a +6 to a stat, it should cost exponentially more than a +4/+2, which costs more than a +2/+2/+2, etc.
i hope it's the same as the standard. this way i can shave the Nekogami point cost by throwing in a Charisma penalty.
You're not really refering to a race with:
-+2 STR/DEX
-bonus-feat
-darkvision
-increased speed
-+2 will-saves
-free EWP
in balance issues, do you?
oh wait, I forgot, -2CHA, well, yea, didnt see that, my fault.
i hope it's the same as the standard. this way i can shave the Nekogami point cost by throwing in a Charisma penalty.You're not really refering to a race with:
-+2 STR/DEX
-bonus-feat
-darkvision
-increased speed
-+2 will-saves
-free EWPin balance issues, do you?
oh wait, I forgot, -2CHA, well, yea, didnt see that, my fault.
it's actually not that bad. it's not anything along the lines of the hulks. and definitely not a sparkle elf either. and races built for specific niches already exist.
Elf (Wizard/Witch) Halfling/Gnome (Sorcerer) Dwarf (Druid/Cleric) Suli (Battle Oracle/Paladin) Aasimaar/Changeling (Channel Cleric) Ifrit (Fire Sorcerer) Fetchling (Rogue/Ninja), Oread (monk)
it's actually not that bad. it's not anything along the lines of the hulks. and definitely not a sparkle elf either. and races built for specific niches already exist.Elf (Wizard/Witch) Halfling/Gnome (Sorcerer) Dwarf (Druid/Cleric) Suli (Battle Oracle/Paladin) Aasimaar/Changeling (Channel Cleric) Ifrit (Fire Sorcerer) Fetchling (Rogue/Ninja), Oread (monk)
Well, some of those you mentioned are powerful races, for sure. They all really benefit from dropping out LA-rules in PF, moste of them would have had at least +1 LA in 3.5 games, so you need to accept those are stronger than core-races (Aasimar, Oread etc.).
But: none of those get 2 feats for free, increased speed and all the stuff I mentioned above. Aasimar gets +2Cha +2Wis, darkvision, +2 Perception and some minor stuff. Your race would be kinda ok if it have those 2 feats for free and +2 will-save. But those three are just way over the top. I really have no idea how this could be justified:O
