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As with the pre-gen/replay discussion, only one or two Venture-Captains or Paizo staff will pop in if there needs to be any clarification. I want to make sure to get feedback from the fanbase without undue influence.
3) Named magical items cannot be upgraded. Only weapons and armor can have additional special abilities added. Intelligent magic items are not available for purchase unless it appears on a Chronicle Sheet or is provided as part of a class or archetype (i.e. Black Blade Magus Archetype).
Sounds reasonable, although you should probably define "named magic item" more clearly. Presumably a mithral shirt is not a "named magic item", for instance.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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"The Axe of the Dwarven Kings" is a named weapon.
Your +1 frost longsword is not, even if you name it yourself.
There are some weapons that are named in the scenario, but listed as just a plain +2 flaming (for example) weapon on the Chronicle sheet. in this case, I would presume that the chronicle sheet trumps the scenario text (since the player has access to it) and it would be upgradable, yes?
"The Axe of the Dwarven Kings" is a named weapon.
Your +1 frost longsword is not, even if you name it yourself.
That's not really what I'm asking about. I'm thinking about things like "Dwarven plate" which is listed in the "Specific Armor" section of the core rulebook. Is that a "named" armor or not? I would say not, considering it's just bog standard adamantine full plate.
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Dwarven Plate has "nonmagical" listed under its aura. Therefore, it is named masterwork and could be upgraded.
These other items out of the Core Rulebook are also non magic, and therefore fall under the Named Masterwork armors:
Adamantine Breastplate
Dwarven Plate
Elven Chain
Mithral Shirt
Hellknight Armor
Darkwood Buckler
Darkwood Shield
Mithral Heavy Shield
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3) Named magical items cannot be upgraded. Only weapons and armor can have additional special abilities added. Intelligent magic items are not available for purchase unless it appears on a Chronicle Sheet or is provided as part of a class or archetype (i.e. Black Blade Magus Archetype).
I'm against any "+1 bonus: type upgrades to Named Magical Items. It's just too hard to clarify the gp costs and could lead to discussions that we just don't need to spend time on at the table. For example adding Light Fortification (+1 bonus) to Celestial Armor.
That said, I have no problem adding gp upgrade to Named Magical Items. For example adding Shadow (+3,750 gp) to Celestial Armor (22,400 gp) for a total cost of 26,150 gp. It's simple addition and therefor should be allowed IMO.
-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'm against any "+1 bonus: type upgrades to Named Magical Items. It's just too hard to clarify the gp costs and could lead to discussions that we just don't need to spend time on at the table. For example adding Light Fortification (+1 bonus) to Celestial Armor.
That said, I have no problem adding gp upgrade to Named Magical Items. For example adding Shadow (+3,750 gp) to Celestial Armor (22,400 gp) for a total cost of 26,150 gp. It's simple addition and therefor should be allowed IMO.
-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts
I would agree with this, except I'm in favor of a clean, simple rule. So "no upgrading named magical items" seems good to me.
Though it would help to amend that sentence with a parenthetical "(non-magical named items can be upgraded as normal)" notation. We've already seen in this very thread that the question will come up.
Michael,
Don't forget to include Hellknight Armor on that listed of Named Masterwork Armor.
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As with the pre-gen/replay discussion, only one or two Venture-Captains or Paizo staff will pop in if there needs to be any clarification. I want to make sure to get feedback from the fanbase without undue influence.
3) Named magical items cannot be upgraded. Only weapons and armor can have additional special abilities added. Intelligent magic items are not available for purchase unless it appears on a Chronicle Sheet or is provided as part of a class or archetype (i.e. Black Blade Magus Archetype).
Dwarven Plate has "nonmagical" listed under its aura. Therefore, it is named masterwork and could be upgraded.
These other items out of the Core Rulebook are also non magic, and therefore fall under the Named Masterwork armors:
Adamantine Breastplate
Dwarven Plate
Elven Chain
Mithral ShirtDarkwood Buckler
Darkwood Shield
Mithral Heavy Shield
Given these two statements...
1) Named magical items cannot be upgraded, only special properties can be added (can not upgrade a non-intelligent item to be intelligent).2) Named masterwork items can be upgraded.
The question then becomes...
If I upgrade a named masterwork item (Adamantine Breastplate) to a +1 (Adamantine Breastplate), could I upgrade it again (to +2) once I have earned enough money for the upgrade and the full purchase price is within my faction fame allowance?
Using the rules stated, I would not be able to since the item in question is now a named magical item. I would only be able to add a special property, such as Flaming.
I highly disagree with this proposed ruling. People should have the opportunity to upgrade any item as long as they have the means to purchase the item upgrade and the fame required to purchase the full price of the item. Perhaps to speed up the purchase process there should be a consolidated list of upgrades and prices to aid GMs determining the correct price of magical gear upgrades.
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I believe you're reading too much into this. A 'named magical item' is an item like a sword of subtlety or winged shield. These items have specific magical properties that do not easily boil down into the pricing scheme laid out in the Core.
In your example, a +1 Adamantine Breastplate is not a named magical item, so it can be upgraded to a +2 version.
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The question then becomes...
If I upgrade a named masterwork item (Adamantine Breastplate) to a +1 (Adamantine Breastplate), could I upgrade it again (to +2) once I have earned enough money for the upgrade and the full purchase price is within my faction fame allowance?Using the rules stated, I would not be able to since the item in question is now a named magical item. I would only be able to add a special property, such as Flaming.
I highly disagree with this proposed ruling. People should have the opportunity to upgrade any item as long as they have the means to purchase the item upgrade and the fame required to purchase the full price of the item. Perhaps to speed up the purchase process there should be a consolidated list of upgrades and prices to aid GMs determining the correct price of magical gear upgrades.
Yes, if you can add a +1 to a named masterwork item, you can add a +2 to it later when you have the gold to do so.
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I believe you're reading too much into this. A 'named magical item' is an item like a sword of subtlety or winged shield. These items have specific magical properties that do not easily boil down into the pricing scheme laid out in the Core.
In your example, a +1 Adamantine Breastplate is not a named magical item, so it can be upgraded to a +2 version.
+1 This
edwardcd,
The Named Masterwork Armor are really more Named Generic Masterwork Armor and would still be generic after you enchant them. For example, adding a +1 to Elven Chain does not turn it into Celestial Armor or adding a +1 to a masterwork longsword does not turn it into a Holy Avenger. To me, those are examples of Named items that would not be upgradeable with this rule.
So I would propose saying that Named Generic Items can be upgraded, while Named Special Items cannot be. Basically, anything you could duplicate exactly by building it from scratch and have the cost come out the same should be upgradeable.
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At first blush, I was way against this idea.
Then after thinking about it, and realizing that "named" magical items don't break down easily into the +1 market valuation in the core rules, it would necessarily be quite difficult to create a custom system for doing so, and PFS is not the place for this kind of home rule.
So I agree with this rule.
question: should you be able to upgrade generic MW/magical armor/etc into ´named´ magical items, e.g. into celestial armor, if the base types are otherwise the same and the named item also includes the the ´generic´ abilities/enchantments that already exist?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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As much as I like the idea of being able to upgrade named stuff, I think this rule is reasonable under PFS because there is too much room for interpretation of how you would upgrade items.
Perhaps some upgraded versions of these items could be included in chronicles though...
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3) Named magical items cannot be upgraded.
I would specify "if they cannot be duplicated through normal item enhancement paths." If a named magic item can be duplicated through normal, available, enhancements, the name is only a convenience.
Only weapons and armor can have additional special abilities added.
I am not quite sure what is meant by this. I haver to admit there are already some special cases that are either allowed, or should be allowed, especially to give interim upgrade paths for certain items.
Example: Belts of physical stats.
From any +2 to +4 is an obvious step.
From any +2 to +2 to any two or three stats is an obvious step.
From a double or triple +2 to a double or triple +4 is an obvious step, but ruins way too much money at once. In this case, I would love having an option available for partial upgrades (+4 to stat A, +2 to stat B), especially since the costs for this are fairly easy to work out.
Intelligent magic items are not available for purchase unless it appears on a Chronicle Sheet or is provided as part of a class or archetype (i.e. Black Blade Magus Archetype).
Agreed
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question: should you be able to upgrade generic MW/magical armor/etc into ´named´ magical items, e.g. into celestial armor, if the base types are otherwise the same and the named item also includes the the ´generic´ abilities/enchantments that already exist?
I don't think that's such a bad idea actually, just as long as you know that you can never upgrade the item after that. So if you turn your +3 chainmail into celestial armor, just realize that you can never make it a +4 version or do anything else to it (like add shadow).
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question: should you be able to upgrade generic MW/magical armor/etc into ´named´ magical items, e.g. into celestial armor, if the base types are otherwise the same and the named item also includes the the ´generic´ abilities/enchantments that already exist?I don't think that's such a bad idea actually, just as long as you know that you can never upgrade the item after that. So if you turn your +3 chainmail into celestial armor, just realize that you can never make it a +4 version or do anything else to it (like add shadow).
I also approve such addition. This will make GM's job easier when someone asks if they can or cannot upgrade the "named" item because it's already designed. Like "Bracers of Armor +1"
The rule works.
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Example: Belts of physical stats.
From any +2 to +4 is an obvious step.
From any +2 to +2 to any two or three stats is an obvious step.
From a double or triple +2 to a double or triple +4 is an obvious step, but ruins way too much money at once. In this case, I would love having an option available for partial upgrades (+4 to stat A, +2 to stat B), especially since the costs for this are fairly easy to work out.
As much as I would like a Belt of Str +4 and Con +2 for my Paladin(ish), this is not going to happen in PFS and better served for home games. PFS likes to stick to the rules as much as possible, and there is not a place in the book where you can buy an item like this. This would constitute as a quasi-ruling, which is something I believe PFS has / is started/-ing to get away from.
And as a GM, this is not something I want to have to check for to see if you're paying the appropriate amount. I like being able to look in the book at prices and see it all laid out for me.
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I also approve such addition. This will make GM's job easier when someone asks if they can or cannot upgrade the "named" item because it's already designed. Like "Bracers of Armor +1"
The rule works.
Just to be clear, bracers of armor +1 can be upgraded to bracers of armor +2 like a belt of physical perfection +2 can be upgraded to a belt of physical perfection +4 by paying the differences in the two prices.
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Example: Belts of physical stats.
From any +2 to +4 is an obvious step.
From any +2 to +2 to any two or three stats is an obvious step.
From a double or triple +2 to a double or triple +4 is an obvious step, but ruins way too much money at once. In this case, I would love having an option available for partial upgrades (+4 to stat A, +2 to stat B), especially since the costs for this are fairly easy to work out.As much as I would like a Belt of Str +4 and Con +2 for my Paladin(ish), this is not going to happen in PFS and better served for home games. PFS likes to stick to the rules as much as possible, and there is not a place in the book where you can buy an item like this. This would constitute as a quasi-ruling, which is something I believe PFS has / is started/-ing to get away from.
And as a GM, this is not something I want to have to check for to see if you're paying the appropriate amount. I like being able to look in the book at prices and see it all laid out for me.
Um, actually I believe that upgrading a Physical Belt or Mental Headband like you would a weapon or suit of armor is allowed in PFS.
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I am not quite sure what is meant by this. I haver to admit there are already some special cases that are either allowed, or should be allowed, especially to give interim upgrade paths for certain items.
Example: Belts of physical stats.
From any +2 to +4 is an obvious step.
From any +2 to +2 to any two or three stats is an obvious step.
From a double or triple +2 to a double or triple +4 is an obvious step, but ruins way too much money at once. In this case, I would love having an option available for partial upgrades (+4 to stat A, +2 to stat B), especially since the costs for this are fairly easy to work out.
This is already layed out and in the rules to advance a belt of physical status from +2 to +4. What I am looking to avoid is adding invisibility to a Ring of Prot. +2 and the like.
As for the special abilities referred to in the original text, I am referring to Tables 15-4, 15-5, 15-9 etc...
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Based on the original wording and definitions of "named" gear leaves for different interpretations, one strictly based on the logic of the sentence and the one based on intent. The intent of the proposed rule I fully agree with.
Thus as was pointed out..
So I would propose saying that Named Generic Items can be upgraded, while Named Special Items cannot be. Basically, anything you could duplicate exactly by building it from scratch and have the cost come out the same should be upgradeable.
I completely agree with this, I would define the rule to be Named Special Items... then define "Special Items" as those having specific magical properties that do not have a pricing scheme in the core books.
If that is the proposed rule. 100% in favor of it.
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Um, actually I believe that upgrading a Physical Belt or Mental Headband like you would a weapon or suit of armor is allowed in PFS.
Sort of.
Take, for instance, a belt of giant strength +2 which costs 4000 gp. You can upgrade this to a belt of physical might (Str & Con) by paying the difference between the two belt prices (10000-4000=6000 gp). At this point, you can either upgrade it to a +4 or +6 version of a belt of physical might or a +2, +4, or +6 version of a belt of physical perfection by using the same process I just described. What you cannot have is a belt of physical might Str +4 and Con +2, because there is not a listing in any legal resource for the price of that item.
If you read he wanted a +4 to Stat A and a +2 to Stat B item, which is not allowed.
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This is already layed out and in the rules to advance a belt of physical status from +2 to +4. What I am looking to avoid is adding invisibility to a Ring of Prot. +2 and the like.
As for the special abilities referred to in the original text, I am referring to Tables 15-4, 15-5, 15-9 etc...
I take this to mean then, that if it isn't some sort of a stat enhancing item, that you are considering it a "named" item?
If that's the case, I disagree with this ruling.
It is very easy to determine how expensive it would be to create a ring of protection +2 of Invisibility. It would equal whichever came first at cost + double the added ability.
I thought this ruling was to stop people from trying to add to named items that would cause confusion in how to do so. Such as with some of the named weapons and armor that have costs that aren't easily calculatable down to the + market value of how those items are created.
Please clarify this?
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Rings cannot have stacking effects (i.e. Ring of Protection +2 and Invisibility). Magic Items cannot be customized.
Please clarify this?
Hmm... I assume you mean that Rings cannot have two different effects on the same ring? I understand a need for this in that there is a reason why you can only wear two magical rings.
But a Ring of Protection +1 can be upgraded to a Ring of Protection +2, which is essentially a stacked effect, right?
I still think some revision and clarification of what this really means needs to be adopted, because there are many "named" items in the Wondrous Item gamut that you say can be upgraded, like Amulets of Natural Armor can be upgraded for a higher Natural Armor bonus. But some GM might see "no upgrading named items" and not allow this.
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Hmm... I assume you mean that Rings cannot have two different effects on the same ring? I understand a need for this in that there is a reason why you can only wear two magical rings.
But a Ring of Protection +1 can be upgraded to a Ring of Protection +2,
This is correct. It is also the reason I put these out here so we can get the correct, clarified wording.
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Though I understand what you are trying to ask her Mike, it is a bit confusing at first glance...
What you are saying is that Beyond rules already built into the Item *Stat boosting Items, Ring of Protection, cloak of resistance, etc.* you can not customize the item, like making a Ring of protection with Evasion on it, which is already a rule in PFS so no change there.
Also you are saying you can't Upgrade Named Magical Weapons and Armor, while I personally think should be allowed, but since there are no rules for it, PFS is not the place to make them. This is a good rule for Ultimate Equipment book that is coming out at a later date, and should be revisited then if there are rules for it in that book.
Intelligent magic items are not available for purchase unless it appears on a Chronicle Sheet or is provided as part of a class or archetype (i.e. Black Blade Magus Archetype), is not a new rule either and currently true in PFS and should not be changed.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It might be easier to just give a list of which items CAN be upgraded rather than try to spell out which cannot. That list is rather short.
Any other item cannot be upgraded.
Edit: Added Bracers (Thanks Andrew)
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It might be easier to just give a list of which items CAN be upgraded rather than try to spell out which cannot. That list is rather short.
Masterwork items can be upgraded to +1 items of the same material and type.
Magical weapons with only +X bonuses and magical weapon properties.
Magical armor that with only +X bonuses and magical armor properties.
Cloaks of Resistance
Rings of Protection
Amulet of Natural Armor
Amulet of might fists
Belts and headbands that boost physical or mental stats only Any other item cannot be upgraded.
What about Bracers of Armor?
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I will have to be against this idea. Not that it doesn't make sense but seems to me to have enough confusion to it and adding the needing wording to the rules is just more and more to the rule set.
I think ALL magic items should be non upgradable. If you want to upgrade sell off old for 50% and buy a new.
Makes it simpler. Simple at times is VERY useful.
On that note.....
Add more exotic items to chronicle sheets. There is nothing more disappointing in getting a Cure Mod wounds potion on a sheet in a tier 8-9 table.
Treasure needs to more diverse.
What about altering named armor by turning it into barding? Is that allowed?
besides what hogarth said, i still want to know the intent if you can upgrade INTO named items (and never after that point once you have it). shivok`s point re: fixed cost enhancements (i.e. that are `bonus equivalents`) seems pretty relevant too. i don`t see a need to more heavy-handed than necessary, and like dennis says, it may well be easier to specifiy what you CAN`T upgrade, and along with that it can be defined what `upgrade` means in this context - the bonus equivalent tables.
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What about Bracers of Armor?It might be easier to just give a list of which items CAN be upgraded rather than try to spell out which cannot. That list is rather short.
Masterwork items can be upgraded to +1 items of the same material and type.
Magical weapons with only +X bonuses and magical weapon properties.
Magical armor that with only +X bonuses and magical armor properties.
Cloaks of Resistance
Rings of Protection
Amulet of Natural Armor
Amulet of might fists
Belts and headbands that boost physical or mental stats only Any other item cannot be upgraded.
What about Bracers of Archery? Can you upgrade Bracers of Archery, Lesser into Bracers of Archery, Greater?
Can you upgrade a Metamagic Rod, Lesser, to one without the Lesser designation, or even into a Greater designation?
And I am sure there are additional items like this in the books...
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I am not quite sure what is meant by this. I haver to admit there are already some special cases that are either allowed, or should be allowed, especially to give interim upgrade paths for certain items.
Example: Belts of physical stats.
From any +2 to +4 is an obvious step.
From any +2 to +2 to any two or three stats is an obvious step.
From a double or triple +2 to a double or triple +4 is an obvious step, but ruins way too much money at once. In this case, I would love having an option available for partial upgrades (+4 to stat A, +2 to stat B), especially since the costs for this are fairly easy to work out.This is already layed out and in the rules to advance a belt of physical status from +2 to +4. What I am looking to avoid is adding invisibility to a Ring of Prot. +2 and the like.
As for the special abilities referred to in the original text, I am referring to Tables 15-4, 15-5, 15-9 etc...
And this is why I'm 100% behind this one
What about Bracers of Armor?It might be easier to just give a list of which items CAN be upgraded rather than try to spell out which cannot. That list is rather short.
Masterwork items can be upgraded to +1 items of the same material and type.
Magical weapons with only +X bonuses and magical weapon properties.
Magical armor that with only +X bonuses and magical armor properties.
Cloaks of Resistance
Rings of Protection
Amulet of Natural Armor
Amulet of might fists
Belts and headbands that boost physical or mental stats only Any other item cannot be upgraded.
What about Bracers of Archery? Can you upgrade Bracers of Archery, Lesser into Bracers of Archery, Greater?
Can you upgrade a Metamagic Rod, Lesser, to one without the Lesser designation, or even into a Greater designation?
And I am sure there are additional items like this in the books...
My understanding has always been that if there are multiple versions of a magic item that are in legal sources, that you can upgrade from a weaker to a stronger version, so long as you are not skipping steps, meaning if you have a Lesser, normal and Greater version, you have to upgrade from the Lesser to the normal before you can upgrade to the Greater.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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My feelings on this are mixed. Much like my post in the "Re-skinning Animal Companions" thread, I understand the need for this rule for simplicities sake, as well as campaign consistency.
However, if a Named Item does not list the material used to make it, is there a reason why it could not be made using a special material, providing the cost for an item of that type is paid for? The limitations on what a player can purchase already exists, with Prestige limiting your spending. I would be 100% behind the simple rule if ALL the named type armor and weapons could be recreated using an equivalent "+1 (or greater)" cost or a flat GP cost.
For example, a suit of Folding Plate is a Named Item by the definition given. It lists no particular material for its construction, other than for the brooch or cloak pin. If a person wanted to purchase a suit of Mithril Folding Plate it would be expressly not allowed, since it is a Named Item. But he couldn't make on or Craft on either, since "Folding" is not a Property that he can add to just any suit of enchanted armor for a GP or +_ cost. In a home game, there would be none of these limitations.
I am not a fan of rules/perceived limitations that drive players away from Organized Play.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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What about Bracers of Archery? Can you upgrade Bracers of Archery, Lesser into Bracers of Archery, Greater?
Can you upgrade a Metamagic Rod, Lesser, to one without the Lesser designation, or even into a Greater designation?
And I am sure there are additional items like this in the books...
This is exactly why I think a specific list should be out there. In general I don't think you should be able to upgrade magic items save a few fairly generic ones. It wouldn't bother me too much if they were upgradable though, I just want it to be crystal clear what's what.
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"Named" magic items suck when you can't upgrade them. Let's make sure they don't suck.
-Matt
+1
Named magical weapons and armors are inferior to ordinary if they aren't upgradeable.
But then again it'd be a little confusing, the most simple way to go would be to deny upgrading named magical weapons and armors. So in fact, I'm okay with Mike's proposed rule.