Two unrelated questions: Flesh Golems and Rogues

[Primagen]

Question one:

Would you consider a Flesh Golem a construct AND undead? After all, one of the spells required to create a Flesh Golem is animate dead. The reason I'm wondering is I'm running a very undead-heavy campaign right now where one of my players is a ranger who specializes in the slaying of the undead and another is a paladin. Would you rule that their bonuses against undead count against this monster?

Question two:

I think I have a pretty good understanding of the limitations on the rogue's sneak attack, except for one thing... Let's say a rogue is fighting a creature, and the creature's attention is diverted elsewhere for some reason, and while it is distracted the rogue hides, in a bush for instance. The creature eventually returns to find the rogue and beat him to a pulp, but can't seem to locate him, but he's definitely on his toes, has acted, and is not flat-footed. Could a rogue still fire a crossbow bolt from the bush and sneak attack the monster, since it is not aware of his location? And although the monster is not flat-footed, would it be considered flat-footed to the rogue's attack since it doesn't see it coming and can't defend itself, somewhat like being flanked?

Thanks.

[Fatespinner]

Primagen wrote:

Question one:

Would you consider a Flesh Golem a construct AND undead? After all, one of the spells required to create a Flesh Golem is animate dead. The reason I'm wondering is I'm running a very undead-heavy campaign right now where one of my players is a ranger who specializes in the slaying of the undead and another is a paladin. Would you rule that their bonuses against undead count against this monster?

Question two:

I think I have a pretty good understanding of the limitations on the rogue's sneak attack, except for one thing... Let's say a rogue is fighting a creature, and the creature's attention is diverted elsewhere for some reason, and while it is distracted the rogue hides, in a bush for instance. The creature eventually returns to find the rogue and beat him to a pulp, but can't seem to locate him, but he's definitely on his toes, has acted, and is not flat-footed. Could a rogue still fire a crossbow bolt from the bush and sneak attack the monster, since it is not aware of his location? And although the monster is not flat-footed, would it be considered flat-footed to the rogue's attack since it doesn't see it coming and can't defend itself, somewhat like being flanked?

Thanks.

1.) No, a golem is a construct, not undead. It does not gain any of the usual undead immunities/resistances and is not animated by the same forces.

2.) A creature needs only to be denied it's Dexterity bonus to AC in order to be sneak attacked. It does not have to be flat-footed. If the creature does not know the rogue's location, then it cannot use it's Dexterity bonus against the rogue's attacks. Thus, sneak attack is applicable.

[Nicos]

Primagen wrote:

Question one:

Would you consider a Flesh Golem a construct AND undead? After all, one of the spells required to create a Flesh Golem is animate dead. The reason I'm wondering is I'm running a very undead-heavy campaign right now where one of my players is a ranger who specializes in the slaying of the undead and another is a paladin. Would you rule that their bonuses against undead count against this monster?

Question two:

I think I have a pretty good understanding of the limitations on the rogue's sneak attack, except for one thing... Let's say a rogue is fighting a creature, and the creature's attention is diverted elsewhere for some reason, and while it is distracted the rogue hides, in a bush for instance. The creature eventually returns to find the rogue and beat him to a pulp, but can't seem to locate him, but he's definitely on his toes, has acted, and is not flat-footed. Could a rogue still fire a crossbow bolt from the bush and sneak attack the monster, since it is not aware of his location? And although the monster is not flat-footed, would it be considered flat-footed to the rogue's attack since it doesn't see it coming and can't defend itself, somewhat like being flanked?

Thanks.

1) you should not do that, they are construct, not undead

2)the rogue will make a surprise atack (the enemy is not aware of the direction of the atack) against his enemy therefore yes i think he can add his snake atack.

Also if you are not convinced, let the evil guy make a perception check if he fail he is unaware of the rogue´s atack

[Primagen]

Thanks. I've been dealing with the rogue's sneak attacks correctly, but this flesh golem not counting as undead stuff doesn't sit right with me.

edit*

I guess I should have made it more clear that I wasn't looking for RAW info on the golem, I know as far as the stat block is concerned the flesh golem is strictly a construct. I was wondering if anyone else however would house rule that they're also undead for the purpose of being effected by good-aligned magic and things like that.

[Maerimydra]

Primagen wrote:

Thanks. I've been dealing with the rogue's sneak attacks correctly, but this flesh golem not counting as undead stuff doesn't sit right with me.

edit*

I guess I should have made it more clear that I wasn't looking for RAW info on the golem, I know as far as the stat block is concerned the flesh golem is strictly a construct. I was wondering if anyone else however would house rule that they're also undead for the purpose of being effected by good-aligned magic and things like that.

Just look at it that way: a golem is an elemental spirit trapped into a material body by powerful magic. It has no tie with the negative energy plane.

[Cheapy]

Maerimydra wrote:

Primagen wrote:

Thanks. I've been dealing with the rogue's sneak attacks correctly, but this flesh golem not counting as undead stuff doesn't sit right with me.

edit*

I guess I should have made it more clear that I wasn't looking for RAW info on the golem, I know as far as the stat block is concerned the flesh golem is strictly a construct. I was wondering if anyone else however would house rule that they're also undead for the purpose of being effected by good-aligned magic and things like that.

Just look at it that way: a golem is an elemental spirit trapped into a material body by powerful magic. It has no tie with the negative energy plane.

Unless it's a ...

gasp!

NEGATIVE ENERGY ELEMENTAL!

[Maerimydra]

Cheapy wrote:

Maerimydra wrote:

Primagen wrote:

Thanks. I've been dealing with the rogue's sneak attacks correctly, but this flesh golem not counting as undead stuff doesn't sit right with me.

edit*

I guess I should have made it more clear that I wasn't looking for RAW info on the golem, I know as far as the stat block is concerned the flesh golem is strictly a construct. I was wondering if anyone else however would house rule that they're also undead for the purpose of being effected by good-aligned magic and things like that.

Just look at it that way: a golem is an elemental spirit trapped into a material body by powerful magic. It has no tie with the negative energy plane.

Unless it's a ...

gasp!

NEGATIVE ENERGY ELEMENTAL!

Maybe, but I think that the animating force of most golems is an elemental spirit from the elemental plane of Earth.

[Cheapy]

Maerimydra wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Maerimydra wrote:

Primagen wrote:

Thanks. I've been dealing with the rogue's sneak attacks correctly, but this flesh golem not counting as undead stuff doesn't sit right with me.

edit*

I guess I should have made it more clear that I wasn't looking for RAW info on the golem, I know as far as the stat block is concerned the flesh golem is strictly a construct. I was wondering if anyone else however would house rule that they're also undead for the purpose of being effected by good-aligned magic and things like that.

Just look at it that way: a golem is an elemental spirit trapped into a material body by powerful magic. It has no tie with the negative energy plane.

Unless it's a ...

gasp!

NEGATIVE ENERGY ELEMENTAL!

Maybe, but I think that the animating force of most golems is an elemental spirit from the elemental plane of Earth.

My post was a joke. However! You are indeed correct.

PRD wrote:

golems are granted their magical life via an elemental spirit, typically that of an earth elemental.

God, why can I remember that but I have difficulty remembering important things, such as my age.

[Ma Gi]

Hey do whatever you want! That is the best part of DMing and making an interesting game rather than boring RAW(I like RAW but that's why its RAW cuz it's meant to be changed). Personally I think that is a great idea, so long as you present it with the right flavor and it fits the general setting. Maybe it could be a half-construct half-undead creature which takes on half of each type. Maybe the ranger would get half its bonus against it and the Paladin's smite evil would only half work against it.

As for suggestions of flavor, perhaps the evil priests have found ways of creating more powerful undead which do not have all of the weaknesses of undead, by making them part machine. They would still have control over them as undead though and buff them as such. Obviously this would be more expensive so they won't send them out as fodder(but not as expensive as a pure construct because its part undead). More likely reserve them for more important things like guarding temples, personal guards, or something else the characters would likely encounter at higher levels.

If that helps then great.

[Maerimydra]

Cheapy wrote:

Maerimydra wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Maerimydra wrote:

Primagen wrote:

Thanks. I've been dealing with the rogue's sneak attacks correctly, but this flesh golem not counting as undead stuff doesn't sit right with me.

edit*

I guess I should have made it more clear that I wasn't looking for RAW info on the golem, I know as far as the stat block is concerned the flesh golem is strictly a construct. I was wondering if anyone else however would house rule that they're also undead for the purpose of being effected by good-aligned magic and things like that.

Just look at it that way: a golem is an elemental spirit trapped into a material body by powerful magic. It has no tie with the negative energy plane.

Unless it's a ...

gasp!

NEGATIVE ENERGY ELEMENTAL!

Maybe, but I think that the animating force of most golems is an elemental spirit from the elemental plane of Earth.

My post was a joke. However! You are indeed correct.

PRD wrote:

golems are granted their magical life via an elemental spirit, typically that of an earth elemental.

God, why can I remember that but I have difficulty remembering important things, such as my age.

Remembering your age is not important, since it changes every years. Remembering your date of birth could be handy however. :)

[Primagen]

Ma Gi wrote:

Supporting stuff

I think my players would feel cheated if their abilities didn't effect it as undead. It just seems logical that they would. Some interesting tid bits I found to support that they should be/are an evil creation are:

- "Note that creating a flesh golem requires casting a spell with the evil descriptor." (Under 'creating a flesh golem')

- "animate dead" (listed under creation requirements)

- "Although most flesh golems are mindless, there are persistent rumors of unusual golems who somehow retain the memories of a previous life." (leans towards the fact that they're undead)

- The entire "Unholy Flesh Golem" variant that I could use, which I didn't notice before, however I think this would allow it to be effected by positive energy, but not the ranger's bonus against undead.

Unholy Flesh Golem: Evil golem creators sometimes infuse their creations with negative energy. Positive channeled energy harms them and negative channeled energy heals them as if they were undead, although they are unaffected by special abilities that use channel energy (such as Command Undead, Turn Undead, or the power of the Sun domain).
Any living creature hit by an unholy flesh golem’s melee attacks also takes 1 point of Strength damage. This is a negative energy effect. An unholy flesh golem has an evil aura. Creating an unholy flesh golem is an evil act. (+0 CR)

I think I'm gonna just stick to my idea and house rule that it's effected by anything that effects undead and flavor it up like you said. I could even create a new creature that's very similar but a lower CR so I could throw it at my players sooner.

Thanks for the support Ma Gi