Whirlwind Bard and Melee Bards in General

[Bardic Dave]

I'm thinking of making an arcane duelist with a 1 level fighter dip who uses whirlwind attack.

I was thinking of a feat progression along the lines of:

Feats (Not including arcane duelist bonus feats)
1 Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack (Fighter Bonus Feat, Human Bonus feat)
3 Combat Expertise
5 Spring Attack
7 Whirlwind Attack
9 Lunge
11 Discordant Voice
13 TBA
15 Spell Penetration
17 Greater Spell Penetration
19 TBA

Obviously, this build is far from optimized. Still, is it completely terrible? I experimented with trying to add trip in as well, but found the whole thing to be way too feat intensive.

So what do you think? Is this worth trying out? Or will the character be confined to utter mediocrity? Criticisms and helpful suggestions welcome.

Also, if you have any builds for melee bards in general, please post them. I'd love to see what you've got.

[Moox]

I like the build. Seems cool; I would definitely check out some archetypes from Ultimate Magic though.

We're playing an all-bard campaign and one of my pals is running a tough melee bard. I'll see if he wants to post the build.

-Moox

[sunbeam]

Bardic Dave wrote:

I'm thinking of making an arcane duelist with a 1 level fighter dip who uses whirlwind attack.

I was thinking of a feat progression along the lines of:

Feats (Not including arcane duelist bonus feats)
1 Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack (Fighter Bonus Feat, Human Bonus feat)
3 Combat Expertise
5 Spring Attack
7 Whirlwind Attack
9 Lunge
11 Discordant Voice
13 TBA
15 Spell Penetration
17 Greater Spell Penetration
19 TBA

I guess you are going with strength over dexterity. Normally I favor a ranged build with someone like this, but you've said you want to use whirlwind attack.

I think if you aren't going the heavy armor route you need to use spells to protect yourself. Mirror Image is one I really like. You could UMD a wand of shield as well. That said you might be well advised to consider using a reach weapon. Also look at the whip. Bolas and the net too. If you have quick draw those things might come in really useful at times.

If you are going this route (a fighting bard), I think the spell penetration feats are kind of a waste. You spells should help you and your allies. I don't think you can focus on pumping your dc's to affect opponents, so I would be a buffer and utility man in your shoes.

[Bardic Dave]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Yes Strength over Dex for sure, and definitely mirror image. Good point about spell penetration, I'll rethink that one. I usually throw that on every spell caster I make, but DCs will definitely be an issue so spell penetration would likely be a waste.

One nice thing about the fighter dip aside from the bonus feat is that it gives heavy armour proficiency, which in combination with the 10th level "medium armour without spell failure" ability of the arcane duelist allows for me to wear mithral full plate at 11th level.

Here's an alternative feat path I was exploring. This uses a 2 level fighter dip. One at lvl 1, one at lvl 9.

Feats
1 Dodge, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (Fighter / Human bonus feats)
3 Mobility
5 Spring Attack
7 Whirlwind Attack
9 Lunge, Greater Trip (Fighter bonus feat)

Disadvantages of this build: Loss of power attack, slower bard spell / performance progression. Which build do you guys prefer?

Also, any other good melee bard builds out there? What's your favourite melee bard build?

[Kodger]

Consider a two-level dip into Pathfinder Lore Warden, a fighter archetype. Lore Warden gets Combat Expertise in place of bravery 1.

1 Dodge, Mobility, Improved Trip (Human, Lore Warden [Fighter])
3 Lunge
5 Spring Attack
6 Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack (Lore Warden 2)

[A pure Lore Warden build could get Whirlwind Attack at Fourth level.]

Thanks,

Kodger

[Bardic Dave]

Kodger wrote:

Consider a two-level dip into Pathfinder Lore Warden, a fighter archetype. Lore Warden gets Combat Expertise in place of bravery 1.

1 Dodge, Mobility, Improved Trip (Human, Lore Warden [Fighter])
3 Lunge
5 Spring Attack
6 Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack (Lore Warden 2)

[A pure Lore Warden build could get Whirlwind Attack at Fourth level.]

Thanks,

Kodger

Wow, that's a great idea. Thank you. What book is this archetype from?

[Dragonsong]

Just curious why you aren't going Dervish dancer bard and picking up the dervish dancer feat? As their lvl 20 allows them to attack every opponent in reach along the path of their movement with thier 60ish movement speed that could be a great deal of opponents?
The feat lets you add dex to damage with scimitars meaning you could dump STR. You can also pick up a long spear for the added reach allowing you to effect more targets.

Add arcane strike to the mix to augment the damage output.

As it stands you are 3 feats invested: weapon finesse, dervish dance, and arcane strike depending on point buy or stat array you still might be able to squeeze a PA.

At 12 you can full-attack and move but must move 5 between each attack also really yummy with a reach weapon.

Yes you must wait til 20 to attack supreme numbers of targets but you get the haste rounds with performance around the same level you get whirlwind in your build. And the bonuses to hit, reflex, and AC increase as you level up to mitigate lack of heavy armor and you can wear a shield and have increased movement beat only by the monk. The fort save is going to be an issue in either build but can be overcome or mitigated by gear.

[Kodger]

It's from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. It is a Pathfinder Society Archetype, so your GM might require you to join a PFS faction.

Kodger

[Kodger]

Dragonsong makes some excellent points. You could go:

1 Dodge, Weapon Finesse (Human)
2 Dervish Dance (Lore Warden 1 [Fighter])
3 Mobility
5 Spring Attack
6 Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack (Lore Warden 2)

Kodger

[BigNorseWolf]

I have had 2 completely horrible experiences with whirlwind attack.

Whirlwind is a full round action.

Even IF your DM is throwing waves and waves of low level mooks at you, they either need to walk up to you and hit you, or you need to go up and hit them , and then get hit by them all in return, before whirlwinding.

As a player i had a character with this, the situation hardly ever came up. I ended up ditching the character.

As a dm i had a character with this, and i TRIED throwing waves of mooks at him. He moved up, killed one, and other party members would mow down the mooks before it was his turn again. I had to just houserule it as a standard action.

It looks really really cool if you do it.. but its a huge feat investment that doesn't pay off.

[Dragonsong]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I have had 2 completely horrible experiences with whirlwind attack.

Whirlwind is a full round action.

Even IF your DM is throwing waves and waves of low level mooks at you, they either need to walk up to you and hit you, or you need to go up and hit them , and then get hit by them all in return, before whirlwinding.

As a player i had a character with this, the situation hardly ever came up. I ended up ditching the character.

As a dm i had a character with this, and i TRIED throwing waves of mooks at him. He moved up, killed one, and other party members would mow down the mooks before it was his turn again. I had to just houserule it as a standard action.

It looks really really cool if you do it.. but its a huge feat investment that doesn't pay off.

I cannot disagree whirlwind actually doesn't play out as cool as it seems which is why in my suggestions i don't actually encourage him to build that way but make use of the dervish's features that make it a mobile fighter. I think the Dervish Dancer capstone is a much better ability than whirlwind but it isn't all that either. Honestly I wouldn't go for it but add 4 levels of a full BAB class (likely Paladin to get the big bang of the CHA you have as a bard OR phalanx fighter to be able to use a long spear or pole-arm as a 1 handed weapon with reach and a shield) to get a 4th iterative coupled with the haste dance effect and the +4 to hit it provides and arcane strike means you can switch hit for larger range but lower damage output or go with the scimitar and hit frakking hard for someone with a 10 STR.

[Dorje Sylas]

Played alongside a Spiked Chain fighter back in 3.5 that did Whirlwind. Granted it was in a War style campaign so we'd let him get out in front and watch as he Cuisinarted any unit foolish enough to try and pass the point he was holding. If he got caught on something to tough for him to kill in one go either our archer/sniper or I (light/small calvary) would take a pass at it.

Whirlwind is a very "hold your ground" style. It works best when the other players know to let Whirlwinder grind the mooks to paste and then jump the tougher foes that lived.

This is less Bard and more Whip Fighter but once you start lumping on all the bonuses from specializing having that 15 reach (maybe 20 with Lunge) could a Scorpion Whip with Whirlwind be an effective mook grinder? After all to make a Whirlwind more "effective" then a Full Attack is to get the most extra attacks at Full-BAB as you can into a single round.

[pauljathome]

Kodger wrote:

Dragonsong makes some excellent points. You could go:

1 Dodge, Weapon Finesse (Human)
2 Dervish Dance (Lore Warden 1 [Fighter])
3 Mobility
5 Spring Attack
6 Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack (Lore Warden 2)

Kodger

Or just go with the Dawnflower Dervish Bard archetype from the Inner Sea Guide

1 Dodge, Dervish Dance, Mobility
3 Spring Attack

etc.

And inspiring courage on yourself with double the benefits is kind of nice.

Combines very well with Urban Barbarian as well.

[Atarlost]

Dragonsong wrote:

Yes you must wait til 20

Most games don't go to level 20, and even those that will usually spend far more time at levels less than 20 than at 20. Dervish dance forces him to use a non-reach weapon and wastes two feats relative to a strength build.

I'd consider trying to get weapon focus (whip) and whip mastery.

The whip is a one handed melee weapon that, surprisingly, does not have anything preventing you from two handing it for +3/-1 PA and x1.5 strength damage, at least not in the CRB printing I have. Whip mastery makes it do lethal damage, removes the clause about not doing anything to enemies with natural armor or DR, and makes it no longer provoke. At level 11 your non-weapon damage bonuses on a two handed attack are something like +3(arcane strike)+3(inspire courage since bladethirst is only doing +2)+6(at 18 strength)+9(power attack)+2(good hope, optional) The difference between a medium whip and halberd or glaive is only 2.5 damage to weigh against being able to hit things next to you, and enlarging boosts the whip's range by more and has no minimum reach to increase.

Unfortunately it looks like the scorpion whip in UC doesn't have the 15' reach and ability to hit adjacent squares of the whip or you could just use it with the original feat plan.

[Kodger]

@pauljathome

The Dawnflower Dervish cannot take Spring Attack at level 3. The feat requires a BAB of +4, which a bard doesn't get until level 6.

Kodger

[Dragonsong]

Atarlost wrote:

Dragonsong wrote:

Yes you must wait til 20

Most games don't go to level 20, and even those that will usually spend far more time at levels less than 20 than at 20. Dervish dance forces him to use a non-reach weapon and wastes two feats relative to a strength build.

But a non str build actually plays to the skills that you want. Also you are right most games don't go to 20 and as I pointed out he can start doing some of the things he wants to get out of whirlwind along the way with the dervish dance with 3 feats rather than 4 for whirlwind as I tried to point out in my post. I thought it was clear but hey I guess folks can hyper focus on my acceding point rather than my suggestions along the way.

[Father Dale]

I'll agree with whats said about Whirlwind attack...its very situational, and it has a heavy feat investment.

Great Cleave is far better I think if you want to be able to get multiple attacks out, and its only a standard action.

And as a bard, you will actually want your move actions, as from lvl 7 through 12 it takes a move to activate a bardic performance.

I'd highly suggest combat reflexes, combined with anything that will improve your reach. You get Disruptive and Spellbreaker for free as an arcane duelist, so you can really lock down enemy spellcasters if you can get a large reach going. I haven't looked closely at the whip feats, but my understanding is they would let you get a very large reach. The snap shot feat line can do the same if you were to be an archer.

The dervish archetype is pretty strong too for a melee bard.