Beginner confusion :(


Advice


Hey guys,

I just recently picked up the Pathfinder core rulebook and Quest for the Everflame to play with my gaming group. We have never played Pathfinder before, but we have lightly delved into 4e and also a bit of Rapture. We found 4e far too board-gamey for our liking, with far too much emphasis on tactical elements and not much focus on actual role playing. Rapture was far better suited to our group, with it's free form story driven style of play, we had lots of fun driving the story forward and keeping decisions and combat restricted to just a few dice rolls with some modifiers on top.

Anyway, so i'd heard great things about Pathfinder, and after reading some advice on various forums and having a quick browse through the rulebook it looked like it was easy enough to abstract the combat a little and play without minis. I'm going to be DM-ing, so i sat down this weekend and decided to roll a couple of characters to see how the process worked.

It was easy enough to roll a fighter, but as soon as i got around to rolling a wizard, everything took on a whole new level of confusing. Spellbooks, memorising spells, restrictions on which spells I could memorise, familiars. There was just a wall of rules that I have to remember, and it's starting to get a bit overwhelming.

4e had lots of rules, and we found ourselves spending more time in the rulebook than actually playing the game, which is ultimately one of the reasons why we gave it up. Everyone sitting around twiddling their thumbs while someone reads a book really isn't a very engaging experience.

I REALLY want to give Pathfinder a go, but now i'm starting to wonder if the system is really suited to my group at all. Does anyone have any advice for helping out a bunch of Pathfinder/roleplaying noobs? Are there any player aids out there that would help with character creation, and specifically things like managing spells and reminding the player what kind of rules to apply to magic/spell management without having to dig through a rulebook in order to remind themselves all the time?
If my players can just SEE what restrictions they need to apply, instead of having to dig through a book, i think this would help greatly.

Sorry for the long post, but i really just want to give Pathfinder a chance, i'm just feeling really overwhelmed at the moment :(


First of all, welcome to Pathfinder!

4E was very streamlined in its approach to the hobby, where-as Pathfinder has done a lot to polish 3.5 but it's still a complicated game. I think you'll really enjoy yourself if you can get into it, but it may not be for you.

If you're new to Pathfinder, and 3.0 based d20 rules in general, the best thing I can recommend is to ignore the spellcasting classes until you've got a good grasp on how the rest of the game works. Try running a few low-level gaming sessions with the characters who don't cast spells and see if it's something you guys can get into. Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Rogue, and Monk are all really interesting and don't cast spells if you play from levels 1-3. It'll give you a good intro to the game.

I definitely recommend that you check out the pregenerated characters here. Even if you choose not to use them it's worth seeing how a character should look once you finish it up.

But yeah, avoid spells and go a couple of sessions trying the game on for size. These boards can overwhelm you with the amount of information people are willing to share, and I'm not sure that's exactly helpful right now; especially considering how confused you are. Once you've gotten a better grasp of things (and some dirt under your nails) you could try coming back and exploring specific things you don't understand. We're a very helpful bunch, I promise.

Truly the key to digesting pathfinder is taking it in small chunks. You could also try checking out your local gaming shops and see if there's any PF lovin' going on there. Sitting in on a game or two could be very helpful in grasping the flow of a session.

Good luck with your gaming adventures!


Might i suggest buying that and playing a few sessions with only that.


Wow, thanks for the great advice Sean. I think i'll start with those pregens, see if the system works for us, and go from there. I think after a session i'll feel a little better about how it all works, and maybe then we can delve into making our own characters and studying the rules a little more.

Sean FitzSimon wrote:

First of all, welcome to Pathfinder!

4E was very streamlined in its approach to the hobby, where-as Pathfinder has done a lot to polish 3.5 but it's still a complicated game. I think you'll really enjoy yourself if you can get into it, but it may not be for you.

If you're new to Pathfinder, and 3.0 based d20 rules in general, the best thing I can recommend is to ignore the spellcasting classes until you've got a good grasp on how the rest of the game works. Try running a few low-level gaming sessions with the characters who don't cast spells and see if it's something you guys can get into. Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Rogue, and Monk are all really interesting and don't cast spells if you play from levels 1-3. It'll give you a good intro to the game.

I only saw the beginner box after I had already bought the core rulebook and Everflame, and not really knowing if we'll end up enjoying the system or not, i'm not sure I want to invest more money at this stage unfortunately.

Thanks again for the advice. Are there any player cheat sheets available that I could hand out to the group when we start?

I definitely recommend that you check out the pregenerated characters here. Even if you choose not to use them it's worth seeing how a character should look once you finish it up.

But yeah, avoid spells and go a couple of sessions trying the game on for size. These boards can overwhelm you with the amount of information people are willing to share, and I'm not sure that's exactly helpful right now; especially considering how confused you are. Once you've gotten a better grasp of things (and some dirt under your nails) you could try coming back and exploring specific things you don't understand. We're a very helpful bunch, I promise.

Truly the key to digesting pathfinder is taking it in small chunks. You could also try checking out your local gaming shops and see if there's any PF lovin' going on there. Sitting in on a game or two could be very helpful in grasping the flow of a session.

Good luck with your gaming adventures!


If someone want to play an arcane caster, let them play a sorc rather than a wizard, it's less complicated.
If someone wants to play a divine caster, let them play a oracle rather than a cleric, it's less complicated.
If the caster classes could have printed or written notes on each spell they posess, that will make things even easier as well.


Don't be afraid to ask for help on the boards. You'll get three helpful people at least for any rule. Pick the answer that works best and ignore the rare (but prominant) unhelpful people.

Brief guide to wizards:

Clerics know every cleric spell in the game. They memorize X amount of spells of Y levels depending on their level and their wisdom. In the morning, they pray to their god for these spells, they're granted, and stuck in the clerics head for the day.

Wizards only know spells that are scribed in their books. Because the wizard is figuring out how the universe works on his own, he needs to write it down and take notes before commiting it to memmory.

When a wizard starts play he has all the 0 level spells. He also knows 2+his int modifier 1st level spells. When a wizard "knows" a spell it is in his spellbook in the literal sense: he has a big honking book and the spell is written down in it. The spellbook includes various notes, comments, musings, memorization tricks etc. that are slightly different from wizard to wizard. The wizard needs to study these every day to fill his head up with spells.

From a mechanical spell point, Your wizard can memorize X amount of spells of Y level per day. He has to select from spells that are in his spellbook.

A wizard can add spells to his spellbook by either 1) leveling and automatically adding 2 spells or 2) Copying from a scroll or other spellbook. If your wizard gets a hold of a spellbook, either by borrowing it from a friend or more often prying it from the cold dead hands of a fallen wizard, he can try to figure out any wizard spell in the book. If he succeeds he must physically copy the spell into his spellbook, and from that point on he can memorize the spell when he memorizes his spell in the morning.

Sorcerers know only a select list of spells. They don't memorize, they can cast X amount of whatever spells they


If I'm not mistaken, there should be four pregenerated characters in the back of the Crypt of the Everflame book. You can always use them. I'd try and deconstruct these for something to work with. And if you have four or less players, perfect!

Pathfinder is pretty distinct from 4e in that there are a wealth of options that are avaliable (if not particularly powerful) for all characters of all builds. I'd try reading the Combat and Magic sections of your rulebook and just glossing over what you don't understand. Chances are, it wont come up in your first few games.

I hope you find this helpful! I couldn't resist trying to give some advise, despite what Sean so wisely said. We're all a bunch of busybodies here. :P

Another thought, should you have the time:If you're willing to spend an extra six dollars, Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil game might be worth picking up.

The combat system is built on 3rd edition D&D, which, as you've likely heard, is REMARKABLY similar to pathfinder. It's heralded as probably the best translation of D&D combat ever, even if the story and polish leave a lot to be desired. If anything, you'll have an idea of what your options are in combat.

It is, unfortunately, just as confusing in some places. Spellbooks in particular. Just think of it as a practice round for your home game.


I was going to write up a lengthy response here but, long story short, as Sean alluded to, I'm not sure PF is right for your group. 4E is, in most respects, less complex than PF. If you're looking for a rules-light game that doesn't focus on combat I don't think your group will be happy.

Try Barbarians of Lemuria, perhaps?


Pretty much I'm agreeing with other folks. My gaming groups prefer Pathfinder because of the complexity and depth of ability. But that's us.

Spells immediately complicate things because there's a huge tree of IF... THEN... conditional resolution. You have to carefully read how each spell works and why, and what the limitations are, and wrap your head around the implications. Spellcasting in Pathfinder is rich, rich, rich.

That all said, as was mentioned above, a sorcerer is a great choice to try out an arcane caster. Stick to mostly conjuration, evocation, and abjuration spells and start at 1st level. Those are mostly blasty spells and shielding spells. Easy to understand what a fireball does, or magic missiles or mage armor. Similarly, oracles are good choices for divine/healers because you don't have a huge, huge spell list to manage.

Good luck and certainly ask if you get stumped. You're looking at a huge rulebook for a reason.

Grand Lodge

Spellcasters can be overwhelming if you never played one. At the same time - they can be rewarding.

Here is what I did for my 8 year old as she insisted on playing a druid (she loved the artwork from Lini with the snow leopard and no arguing to take something more 'simple').

I generated spell cards for her. Ahead of each game I just tell her x level 0 and y level 1 and she is astonishingly good in her selection and use of them.

To make the cards I used an online program from someone here on the boards. It was some work invested - but it paid dividends as it kept her interested and playing.

The other suggestion - try to play a game or two with your local Pathfinder Society (if there is one close by). First steps or Master of the Fallen Fortress. It helps a lot to start as a player with an experienced GM to check out a new game.

If you have a completely new group with no prior 3.5 or d20 experience than it can be a very steep learning curve that could discourage your group.

Thod


There is a lot of great fantasy RPGs out there. If 4e was too rule-heavy for your taste, you may find, I agree, Pathfinder not too well suited to your group.

You may want to consider the following games:

-Barbarian of Lemuria.
-Dragon Age RPG
-Savage Worlds. (Generic system, but buy the fantasy companion, and you are pretty much done for all your fantasy goodness)
-Legend of Anglerre (If your group is really into roleplay, you may want to try this one, based on the FATE system, as it usually support well this kind of play.)

Grand Lodge

There is also the new Beginner Box (?) coming out this month. It is supposed to serve as an introduction so it could be just what you need to get over the initial bumps.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:


the best thing I can recommend is to ignore the spellcasting classes until you've got a good grasp on how the rest of the game works. Try running a few low-level gaming sessions with the characters who don't cast spells and see if it's something you guys can get into. Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Rogue, and Monk are all really interesting and don't cast spells if you play from levels 1-3. It'll give you a good intro to the game.

^^Agreed ^^

I found this to be very helpful the first couple of campaigns I played through. Getting a good grasp of the combat mechanics first is a good idea before piling on more info (spell casting classes increase the amount of reading and information exponentially). The more reading you do before you get to the table, the better off you'll be.

Thod wrote:


I generated spell cards for her.

I've recently started using spell casters and I've found making spell "flashcards" are very useful. For all the spells I think I might use I write the name of the spell and it's level on one side of an index card and a brief description with all pertinent information on the other. When my character is meditating/preparing spells for the day, all I have to is pick the cards I want and put the rest away. This saves me from thumbing through the book constantly (the spells chapter is one of the thickest in the book) and it also helps me keep track of spells I've already used as I can discard them as I go. After using a spell a few times I don't have to look at the card anymore, but it is nice to have a quick reference if I need to clarify anything.

Sovereign Court

Maybe try finding a Pathfinder society game in your area. These are great for beginners to learn the system from experienced players. You dont have to worry about making each week you come and go as you please. I understand that you may not want to play a public game but its one suggestion that may help learning Pathfinder better while still playing and having fun.

As has been mentioned try out the beginners box. If those things do not help then I would start looking for alternative systems as mentioned there are numerous RPGs out there waiting for your group to try.


Pick up the Beginner's Box that is just coming out! It's made for people in exactly your situation! It has everything you need, including an adventure, and a slightly slimmed down version of the rules and is constructed so as to have you playing minutes after opening the box. Not to mention, it's filled with so much awesomeness that experienced players are going to be buying it up, too.


In case you want to try the spell cards that some folks have suggested...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-card-generator/spell-card-generator

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

The wizard class is generally considered the most daunting for newer players. I'd encourage them to start with fighters, monks, rogues,and sorcerers, with only the more ambitious taking clerics.

Spell cards are available as PDFs: They will help your casters quickly learn what to use. A sorcerer will likely start with two or three spells he actually uses during battles.

As GM, you'll want to carefully review the combat section of the Pathfinder rules. The Pathfinder GM screen has numerous commonly-used tables on it, so you may want one.


Sir_Wulf wrote:

The wizard class is generally considered the most daunting for newer players. I'd encourage them to start with fighters, monks, rogues,and sorcerers, with only the more ambitious taking clerics.

Spell cards are available as PDFs: They will help your casters quickly learn what to use. A sorcerer will likely start with two or three spells he actually uses during battles.

As GM, you'll want to carefully review the combat section of the Pathfinder rules. The Pathfinder GM screen has numerous commonly-used tables on it, so you may want one.

Monks and Rogues can be quite difficult to play effectively and still have fun. But add Witch to the easy list (as long as the player focuses on hexes and just keeps a few standard spell mem lists)


The first thing I'll say is that Pathfinder is a very complex system. It is designed to be as encompassing as possible, which means that, by nature, you will have a lot of system to learn in order to play with all of your options.

As others have said, starting out with the Beginner's Box or by limiting PC classes to non-casters (or at least just Spontaneous casters like the Sorceror) will be your best bet. Wizards, Clerics, and Druids are the most confounding classes to most beginners.

You mentioned abstracted combat to remove the map and minis portion of the game. You may wish to reconsider this as map play is fairly integral to the system. Many of the spells available are simply not balanced without the map and minis approach. Removing the map combat aspect may be easier (and possibly faster) for play, but it's critical for the system if you plan to utilize the whole thing later on.

As much as I hate to drive people from Pathfinder, it sounds like you might be better off playing in a different system with fewer rules encumbrances. Silver Age Sentinels might be a good choice for you (not the d20 version, but the original, which is sadly OOP) as it removes many of the complexities that you see in the d20 systems and compensates with more narrative combat. I'm on the dev team of another system that might be interesting to you, but we're not quite to public release yet, so I can't really say much more than that. What I will say is that it's a very bare-bones system and we've had a lot of luck with the smoothing out of our combat system and, like SAS, we rely on a lot of narrative outside of combat.


Thanks again for the advice guys. I think i'll at least give the system a shot and run a session. NorseWolf's description of how spells are memorised was incredibly helpful, and i think i'll even print that out and hand it off to whoever will be playing a wizard.

Either that, or i'll take the advice of most people here and roll a Sorcerer instead.

Like i said before, i'd really like to give this system a shot, mainly due to how much support there is for Pathfinder.

Liberty's Edge

Another item that may be of help, if someone running a spellcaster has an Android device, is the application Spellbook - PF, which pretty much lists out all the Pathfinder spells, and can be used in multiple ways, form just an alphbetical list of spells, to a class-based list of spells by level, to a customized list of your character's spells.

That last one takes some effort to set up, as you have to go through and select the spells to show, but reduces effort in play later.

It is not 100% accurate, of course, and it lists out all spellcasting classes, and covers spells from most of the regular rules books. May include spells from the APs and such, as well. And there may be other portable device apps like this one, as well.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Beginner confusion :( All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.