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... and suddenly I just wondered if the following is right :
Let's assume a level 1 human Bard, wielding a whip.
Weapon finesse, 20 Dex, 8 Str.
His CMB is calculated like this :
BAB (0) + Str (-1) = -1
But, the bard uses Inspire Courage and attempts a Trip - according to the clarification, you can add your whip's bonuses to attack to the maneuver :
CMB (-1) + Finesse (5) + Inspire (1) = +5
BUT, and this is the inexpected Chekov's gun, the second bard's feat is Agile Maneuver ! According to the rules, by CMB becomes :
BAB (0) + Dex (5) = +5
Inspire Courage + trip attempt :
CMB (5) + Finesse (5) + Inspire (1) = +11
... which would be +13 on a disarm attempt thanks to the +2 special bonus from Disarm Property, but this is another story.
Am I right ? Did I just discover how to use Agile Maneuver without feeling like this should be free for any character ?
I don't think you get to add your finesse bonus (or strenght, or whatever) on top of your CMB. You add your weapon bonus, sure, like a magic weapon or weapon focus.
Agile Manouver lets you use Dexterity instead of Strenght when calculating your CMB.
You´re confused by stuff that never changed...
First, Finesse doesn´t add on top of the STR modifier in CMB, it REPLACES it...
So you never suffer the -1 penalty, so with only Weapon Finesse it should be 1 higher.
Second, Agile Maneuvers mainly exists to apply to CMB checks that AREN´T delivarable via Finesse Weapons. Grapple, Bullrush, Over-Run aren´t NORMALLY delivered by any weapon, for example (note those are all maneuvers where STR seems to matter alot). If you don´t have the Skill Ranks to max Escape Artist, that may be important to you. Agile Maneuvers also doesn´t suffer the penalty for using a Shield, important if you use a Shield regularly. Agile Maneuvers is also appropriate for the corner-case where a high-DEX creature doesn´t care about normal attacks, but only wants to be good at the full range of maneuvers.
I´m not sure if Agile Maneuvers lets you use DEX for maneuvers delivered via NON-Finesse Weapons or not (e.g. Greatsword Sunder), which is pretty useful since there´s not that many Reach Finesse weapons AFAIK... Per RAW it seemingly DOES (which is slightly strange to me, but whatever). So that´s another reason you might want it in addition to Weapon Finesse. (imagine Monk who uses Reach weapón mainly for drawing AoO, and normally just Flurries with their UAS)
But in any case, Agile Maneuvers doesn´t affect anything for delivering a Trip via a Whip (Finesse Weapon) if you already have Weapon Finesse... You certainly don´t double-stack DEX bonuses... Both just ´use DEX to determine CMB/attack bonus INSTEAD of STR´.
Basically, if you just want to do Trip/Disarm/Sunder, you only need Weapon Finesse (also Drag/Reposition IF you have a Trip Weapon)
Agile Maneuvers is for the other stuff, which is kind of saying that DEX is harder (needs more than 1 Feat) to fully replace all the usages of STR, in this case those specific non-weapon Maneuvers. DEX can let you get OUT of Grapples easily (if you invest in Escape Artist), but shoving people around and getting them in Grappling holds are more difficult - although possible if you really train hard.
I don't think you get to add your finesse bonus on top of your CMB.
There is a feat, Agile Manouver, which lets you use Dexterity instead of Strenght when calculating your CMB.
Dex is usable for CMB if the maneuver is made with a finesse weapon, and you have the finesse feat. Not sure about agile maneuvers also adding though.
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I don't think you get to add your finesse bonus on top of your CMB.
There is a feat, Agile Manouver, which lets you use Dexterity instead of Strenght when calculating your CMB.
Finesse doesn't add a bonus to your CMB.
But, wait, I just found something...(BTW, this also means if you're using a finesse weapon to make a disarm, sunder, or trip, you should use your Dex instead of Str when calculating your CMB for the check.)
Mmh... so this means I don't even NEED Agile Maneuvers ?
CMB (0+5) + Inspire (1) = +6 to CMB.
One feat less, but also less CMB... well, you can't have everything I guess.
I don´t know, but as I wrote, both clearly say ´INSTEAD of STR´,
so why would anybody think you get to stack DEX twice?
There is a way to get dex to replace strength, and way to add dex to strength. In that way you can add dex twice. The feat that allows you to add dex is in one of the player companion books. I forget which one.
actually, i think i do remember something like that,
maybe it was one of the cheliax devil-style feats?
i don´t think it was for all attacks/maneuvers across the board, but for a specific one.
in any case, not weapon finesse/agile maneuvers as discussed by OP.
actually, i think i do remember something like that,
maybe it was one of the cheliax devil-style feats?
i don´t think it was for all attacks/maneuvers across the board, but for a specific one.
in any case, not weapon finesse/agile maneuvers as discussed by OP.
It was only for tripping, but there is nothing that works across the board.
I don't think you get to add your finesse bonus on top of your CMB.
There is a feat, Agile Manouver, which lets you use Dexterity instead of Strenght when calculating your CMB.Finesse doesn't add a bonus to your CMB.
But, wait, I just found something...(BTW, this also means if you're using a finesse weapon to make a disarm, sunder, or trip, you should use your Dex instead of Str when calculating your CMB for the check.)Mmh... so this means I don't even NEED Agile Maneuvers ?
CMB (0+5) + Inspire (1) = +6 to CMB.
One feat less, but also less CMB... well, you can't have everything I guess.
As far as I can tell, Weapon Finesse only lets you add your Dex instead of Str to attack rolls made with certain weapons, not CMB rolls. Agile Maneuvers lets you add your Dex instead of Str to CMB rolls, no matter the weapon. They do almost the exact same thing for two different ways of attacking.
I think that's kind of stupid, especially when attacking with a finesse-able weapon with a maneuver property, and Weapon Finesse should just let you do both. Why is being a Dex-based attacker such a pain?
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I think that's kind of stupid, especially when attacking with a finesse-able weapon with a maneuver property, and Weapon Finesse should just let you do both. Why is being a Dex-based attacker such a pain?
Read again the link I provided, it explains how Weapon Finesse acts as the Agile Maneuvers feat for the purpose of Trip, Disarm and Sunder.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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As far as I can tell, Weapon Finesse only lets you add your Dex instead of Str to attack rolls made with certain weapons, not CMB rolls. Agile Maneuvers lets you add your Dex instead of Str to CMB rolls, no matter the weapon. They do almost the exact same thing for two different ways of attacking.
I think that's kind of stupid, especially when attacking with a finesse-able weapon with a maneuver property, and Weapon Finesse should just let you do both. Why is being a Dex-based attacker such a pain?
Sean K Reynolds stated, among other things, the following:
BTW, this also means if you're using a finesse weapon to make a disarm, sunder, or trip, you should use your Dex instead of Str when calculating your CMB for the check.
Ta-dah! :D You'll still want Agile Maneuvers for non-weapon-using maneuvers (like Bull Rush), but Weapon Finesse is sufficient for those three.
If that's the case, Agile Maneuvers seems really useless (for a Dex fighter) in most situations. I'll move on to my original question, which I never posted... What if you have Weapon Finesse and also have Greater Whip Mastery which lets you grapple with a whip? Do you still need Agile Maneuvers then?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If that's the case, Agile Maneuvers seems really useless (for a Dex fighter) in most situations. I'll move on to my original question, which I never posted... What if you have Weapon Finesse and also have Greater Whip Mastery which lets you grapple with a whip? Do you still need Agile Maneuvers then?
If you're actually using the weapon, my guess would be Finesse would suffice. That seems to be the idea behind the current position expressed by SKR.
Sweet... If that's true, then this is very useful information for me in the near future. *devilishly rubs hands together*
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It was only for tripping, but there is nothing that works across the board.actually, i think i do remember something like that,
maybe it was one of the cheliax devil-style feats?
i don´t think it was for all attacks/maneuvers across the board, but for a specific one.
in any case, not weapon finesse/agile maneuvers as discussed by OP.
The feat you are thinking of here is Fury's Fall, from the Cheliax book, which lets you add your Dex mod to Trip maneuvers, and appears to stack with either Agile Maneuvers or Weapon Finesse.
And you would want Agile Maneuvers if you use a non-finesseable weapon for combat maneuvers. I have a high-Dex fighter who uses the Fauchard with combat maneuvers.
I think that's kind of stupid, especially when attacking with a finesse-able weapon with a maneuver property, and Weapon Finesse should just let you do both. Why is being a Dex-based attacker such a pain?Read again the link I provided, it explains how Weapon Finesse acts as the Agile Maneuvers feat for the purpose of Trip, Disarm and Sunder.
Good catch.
I think they are going to get them selfs in trouble with this.
I think that's kind of stupid, especially when attacking with a finesse-able weapon with a maneuver property, and Weapon Finesse should just let you do both. Why is being a Dex-based attacker such a pain?Read again the link I provided, it explains how Weapon Finesse acts as the Agile Maneuvers feat for the purpose of Trip, Disarm and Sunder.Good catch.
I think they are going to get them selfs in trouble with this.
Not really. You could combine Weapon Finesse and Agile Manuvers into a single feat, and in most builds, it STILL wouldn't worth spending a feat on.