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So this came up in the recent combat maneuver paizo blog, but was never resolved. It has also been raised in this forum several times without reaching a definitive answer. I'm hoping that the winds of change might blow through and give some clarity. Also, it seems that SKR is prowling about right now. Care to shed some love and light? Of course, all thoughts are welcome.
The question is how weapon finesse interacts with combat maneuvers. At first blush, it seems that there is no interaction. If you want you dex bonus on a combat maneuver, then Agile Maneuvers is the way to go. However, here are some quotes:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.
With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.
So, here are the points which seem to be made here:
(1) Combat Maneuver rolls are attack rolls,
(2) Weapon Finesse lets you use dex when making an attack roll with a finesse weapon, and
(3) Disarm, Sunder, and Trip attempts can, at your discretion, use your weapon in hand and all appropriate bonuses.
The question is, how does Weapon Finesse interact with disarms, trips, and sunders. Here are a few possible interpretations:
(1) You can simply use Weapon Finesse, as it is an attack roll with a weapon, when making a disarm, trip, or sunder attempt with a finesse weapon,
(2) You can use Weapon Finesse, as it is providing a bonus to the attack roll from a feat, which is applicable here, or
(3) You CANNOT use Weapon Finesse, as it is not providing a literal bonus (in the sense that weapon focus provides a flat +1 bonus, but Weapon Finesse is a swap, not a bonus) and so is not applicable here.
What are people's thoughts here?
To my mind, this does not completely negate the need for agile maneuvers, which would apply to all combat maneuvers, not just these three.
Lastly, at the risk of making this even more complicated, is the following:
There is a special exception to the above rules. If you’re using a weapon with the trip special feature, and you’re attempting a drag or reposition combat maneuver (Advanced Player’s Guide 321–322), you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll because trip weapons are also suitable for dragging and repositioning (this also means we don’t have to add “drag” and “reposition” weapon properties to existing weapons).
So if Weapon Finesse is applicable when using a finesse weapon, and reposition and drag can be delivered with a trip weapon, then would someone repositioning with a whip be able to apply weapon finesse to a drag or reposition attempt?
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There's conflicting information.
But first, some housekeeping; you pointed out this bit:
"Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects."
Remember, though, that "adding a bonus" does not mean "applying a special ability". A bonus is a positive (+1 or higher) numerical modifier that gets added to the roll. Thus, this line has nothing to do with weapon finesse.
Anyway, the conflict:
On the one hand, you've got the "CMs are attack rolls" plus "WF modifies attack rolls", leading to the logical conclusion of "WF modifies CMs".
On the other hand, you've got "CMs use CMB instead of normal attack bonus" and WF says nothing of modifying your CMB. Thus, WF does not modify CMs.
On the other other hand, James Jacobs has stated that he believes weapon-using maneuvers are affected by WF, while non-weapon maneuvers are not.
I guess that's the short version of the issue.
There's conflicting information.
But first, some housekeeping; you pointed out this bit:
"Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects."
Remember, though, that "adding a bonus" does not mean "applying a special ability". A bonus is a positive (+1 or higher) numerical modifier that gets added to the roll. Thus, this line has nothing to do with weapon finesse.Anyway, the conflict:
On the one hand, you've got the "CMs are attack rolls" plus "WF modifies attack rolls", leading to the logical conclusion of "WF modifies CMs".On the other hand, you've got "CMs use CMB instead of normal attack bonus" and WF says nothing of modifying your CMB. Thus, WF does not modify CMs.
On the other other hand, James Jacobs has stated that he believes weapon-using maneuvers are affected by WF, while non-weapon maneuvers are not.
I guess that's the short version of the issue.
Yup. That's the long and short of it.
The only thing I would add is that there is an interpretation where Weapon Finesse is a bonus. It is a variable bonus equal to the difference between your strength bonus and dexterity bonus. In this way, it is no less a bonus than power attack is a bonus to attack damage. Both are variable bonuses calculated according to your stats (str/dex in the one case, BAB/weapon-handedness in the other).
I went through this in a game I'm playing and our ruling was that Weapon Finesse has no effect on Combat maneuvers. Our reasoning was that there is a separate Feat (Agile Maneuvers) which tells you to add your Dex bonus instead of your Str bonus while doing Combat Maneuvers.
I went through this in a game I'm playing and our ruling was that Weapon Finesse has no effect on Combat maneuvers. Our reasoning was that there is a separate Feat (Agile Maneuvers) which tells you to add your Dex bonus instead of your Str bonus while doing Combat Maneuvers.
Right, and if I wanted to steal, or grapple, or dirty trick, or bull rush, or really do anything except disarm, trip, or sunder, then I would need Agile Maneuvers.
But Weapon Finesse applies to attack rolls with a finesse weapon, and a disarm, trip, or sunder attempt delivered by a finesse weapon, is an attack roll with a finesse weapon.
SKR just answered a bunch of questions on that blog thread about maneuvers, and also updated the FAQ about tripping. You can trip, disarm, and sunder with any weapon (special quality or no) and get your weapon-specific bonuses. Also, Weapon Finesse applies to those maneuvers.
Awesome, Jiggy. Thanks for the follow-up!