Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Tiger Style, base attack bonus +6 or monk level 5th.
Benefit: While you are using the Tiger Style feat and have both hands free, you can use a full-round action to make a single unarmed strike with both hands. Use your highest base attack bonus, rolling unarmed strike damage for each hand separately and multiplying both if you score a critical hit. If you use Power Attack in conjunction with this attack, can add half your Strength bonus to one of the damage rolls. If you hit, you can attempt a bull rush maneuver with a +2 bonus on the combat maneuver check. This bull rush attempt provokes no attack of opportunity from your opponent, but you cannot move with that opponent if your bull rush is successful.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/tiger-claws-combat
Now consider a monk with a str score of 16 and 1d8 unarmed strike damage. If you use tiger claws what is your damage (while using power attack)?
1) 2d8+3 (1 hand str mod)+ power attack bonus+ 1(1/2x3)
2) 2d8+4 (1 1/2 for 2 hands)+ power attack bonus+ 1(1/2x3)
3) 2d8 (no Str mod as there is no mention of it in the description)+ power attack bonus+ 1(1/2x3).
thanks in advance.
"rolling unarmed strike damage for each hand separately and multiplying both if you score a critical hit" suggests to me that you're basically using one attack roll for two attacks, each of which do their damage normally. You would get the (one-handed) strength bonus and (one handed) power attack bonus plus the actual damage die once for each hand, that is, twice, plus "If you use Power Attack in conjunction with this attack, can add half your Strength bonus to one of the damage rolls."
So,
2*(1d8+3+2)+1, or 2d8+11 for a fifth level monk with 16 Str.
2*(1d8+3+4)+1, or 2d8+15 once monk's BA is six and increases PA.
The reason that I think you do in fact get all your normal bonuses to damage is that it doesn't state that it multiplies the damage dice only (before the other damage modifiers), as it does in the Vital Strike chain. And this is a Full Round action requiring more feats; it really should be better than a Standard Action Vital Strike.
ETA: You'd also get any extra damage or effects from your Amulet of Mighty Fists twice, as well, be that extra damage dice or a flat enhancement bonus.
"rolling unarmed strike damage for each hand separately and multiplying both if you score a critical hit" suggests to me that you're basically using one attack roll for two attacks, each of which do their damage normally. You would get the (one-handed) strength bonus and (one handed) power attack bonus plus the actual damage die once for each hand, that is, twice, plus "If you use Power Attack in conjunction with this attack, can add half your Strength bonus to one of the damage rolls."
So,
2*(1d8+3+2)+1, or 2d8+11 for a fifth level monk with 16 Str.
2*(1d8+3+4)+1, or 2d8+15 once monk's BA is six and increases PA.The reason that I think you do in fact get all your normal bonuses to damage is that it doesn't state that it multiplies the damage dice only (before the other damage modifiers), as it does in the Vital Strike chain. And this is a Full Round action requiring more feats; it really should be better than a Standard Action Vital Strike.
ETA: You'd also get any extra damage or effects from your Amulet of Mighty Fists twice, as well, be that extra damage dice or a flat enhancement bonus.
Hmmm... I agree that you roll damage twice, but I think that you only get the extra strength on one of the damage rolls.
"If you use Power Attack in conjunction with this attack, can add half your Strength bonus to one of the damage rolls."
So with one hit you'd do,
1d8+3(str)+2(pa)+any other modifies you have
and
1d8+4(str)+2(pa)+any other modifies you have
And it doesn't matter which damage roll you add the extra damage to, so the +3 and +4 could be reversed. This is slightly better than Vital strike because the damage bonus's (the real source of damage in an attack) are also doubled (and slightly better than double with the increased STR damage).
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slightly worse than vital strike. vital strike is a standard action. this is a full round attack.
instead of 2 attacks in a flurry at 5th level for this monk at +6(1d8+3) each, he gets one attack at +7 (2d8+6). if he's got power attack he can attack once at +5 (2d8+11) vs. +4/+4 (1d8+5).
its nice, but it isn't too much of an advantage. and it situational because of the full round attack. you also won't want to do it at higher levels where you're giving up three or four attacks to make one attack roll. You also wouldn't gain a benefit of a haste attack with this would you?
"rolling unarmed strike damage for each hand separately and multiplying both if you score a critical hit" suggests to me that you're basically using one attack roll for two attacks, each of which do their damage normally. You would get the (one-handed) strength bonus and (one handed) power attack bonus plus the actual damage die once for each hand, that is, twice, plus "If you use Power Attack in conjunction with this attack, can add half your Strength bonus to one of the damage rolls."
So,
2*(1d8+3+2)+1, or 2d8+11 for a fifth level monk with 16 Str.
2*(1d8+3+4)+1, or 2d8+15 once monk's BA is six and increases PA.The reason that I think you do in fact get all your normal bonuses to damage is that it doesn't state that it multiplies the damage dice only (before the other damage modifiers), as it does in the Vital Strike chain. And this is a Full Round action requiring more feats; it really should be better than a Standard Action Vital Strike.
ETA: You'd also get any extra damage or effects from your Amulet of Mighty Fists twice, as well, be that extra damage dice or a flat enhancement bonus.
Hmmm... I agree that you roll damage twice, but I think that you only get the extra strength on one of the damage rolls.
"If you use Power Attack in conjunction with this attack, can add half your Strength bonus to one of the damage rolls."
So with one hit you'd do,
1d8+3(str)+2(pa)+any other modifies you have
and
1d8+4(str)+2(pa)+any other modifies you haveAnd it doesn't matter which damage roll you add the extra damage to, so the +3 and +4 could be reversed. This is slightly better than Vital strike because the damage bonus's (the real source of damage in an attack) are also doubled (and slightly better than double with the increased STR damage).
OK
thank you guys, this makes sense to me.
I know this is late to be posted on this thread guys, but consider this:
At higher levels, you should be able to use this feat in conjunction with both vital strike (because it is still technically only one attack and not an actual attack action like vital strike) and other feats like dragon style feats (add half strength to first attack, and later to both attacks when you get dragon ferocity).
You basically get to roll damage dice twice (four times with vital strike, six times with improved, eight with greater) and add quadruple strength, plus double enhancement and other flat bonuses (power attack and devastating strike).
Even worse and more broken: multi-class your master of many styles with brawler fighter archetype for more bonuses to damage and to get the +16 BAB for devastating strike.
THen do this with your gold: take the use magic device skill until you can use wands and get a wand of strong jaw as soon as you can afford it, as well of a wand of enlarge person (or have it casted on you permanently) for unarmed strikes as if you were three sizes larger than you should be.
Finally, at high levels, go kill an ancient golden dragon with one attack... or make your damage non-lethal and just knock it out as a joke. That's what I would do anyway because all of my monk characters are pacifists at heart.
example: my level 20 hungry ghost/master of many styles 12 and brawler 8 does 64d8 +112 with his Tiger claw, power attack, vital strike followed by a free bull rush at +50. this is the most broken thing I have been able to come up with so far.
I highly doubt you can combine this with Vital Strike. They are both their own type of specific action.
Sadly you cannot stack tiger style with vital strike :(
Vital Strike
"Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action."
and
Tiger ClawsWhile you are using the Tiger Style feat and have both hands free, you can use a full-round action to make a single unarmed strike with both hands.
tiger style is a full round action and vital strike is a attack action that is a standard action.
Now having said that, if you want to allow vital strike to work with any single attack (a charge, tiger strike, aoo, ect) let me tell you about my barbarian that can do 16x damage in a single hit and I will show you why it is not allowed.
Now consider a monk with a str score of 16 and 1d8 unarmed strike damage. If you use tiger claws what is your damage (while using power attack)?
What's your BAB? Should I assume it's the bare minimum for Power Attack? So, just +2/-1?
If that's the case, then each hand would deal 1d8+5 (+3 str, +2 Power Attack), for 2d8+10, then, since you used Power attack, you'd get to add half your strength bonus again, for another +1, totalling 2d8+11 for the attack.
The end result, though, is that this feat kind of blows.
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It certainly blows if you take it as a Monk, yes.
It's not too bad at level 5 when you're trading a +3/+3 Flurry of Blows for a single +3 attack which does more damage than if both your Flurry attacks had hit, and a free Bull Rush with bonuses too. But from level 6 onwards you're trading 3 or more Flurry attacks for the equivalent of 2 attacks worth of damage (and half your Strength bonus again) plus the Bull Rush effect. Still not too bad (but only if you wanted to Bull Rush the guy in the first place...). From level 9 onwards the difference between your base BAB and your Flurry BAB is starting to tell too (one Tiger Claw at +6 Vs four Flurry attacks at +7/+7/+2/+2)...
If you're not a Monk (or other 'two-weapon fighting' style combatant) it stays attractive a bit longer, but as soon as you hit BAB +11 and are trading 3 attacks for the equivalent of 2 attacks plus a Bull Rush the attraction starts to fade, and at BAB +16 you probably want to use that full-round action for your 4 attacks instead. Still, for the 'sweet spot' of BAB +6 to BAB +10 it's pretty nice, and in a lot of campaigns you'll linger round those levels for quite some time. Also you'll be using Tiger Style by default, so you'll have that nice bleed damage on a critical.
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Vital strike reads:
When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage.
Tiger claws reads:
While you are using the Tiger Style feat and have both hands free, you can use a full-round action to make a single unarmed strike with both hands.
There is no errata posted for Tiger Claws that says it is a special action, and unless I am mistaken, there isn't any reason why you can't take a full round attack action to deliver what is normally considered a standard action attack.
I may not be completely clear on how these rules work, but if it doesn't work, I would still use it with dragon style as a master of many styles for the dragon/tiger shao-lin flavor.
Tiger Claw defines a new full round action. "You can use a full-round action to..." That's pretty clear, I think. It is not the attack action, so it can't combine with Vital Strike.
How would this translate with Dragon Style if it is your first attack in the round which grants you 1.5 str?
Would you get the 1.5 str bonus on both damage rolls since it is one attack which also triggers the higher yields of Power Attack... 1 for 3?
How would it also factor in with Dragon Ferocity since that feat gives you a +.5 str to all unarmed strikes. Would it trigger the same mechanic as above?
Thanks!
How would this translate with Dragon Style if it is your first attack in the round which grants you 1.5 str?
Would you get the 1.5 str bonus on both damage rolls since it is one attack which also triggers the higher yields of Power Attack... 1 for 3?
How would it also factor in with Dragon Ferocity since that feat gives you a +.5 str to all unarmed strikes. Would it trigger the same mechanic as above?
Thanks!
You would get 1.5x Str bonus on both damage rolls with the single attack if you are using both dragon and tiger styles at the same time (through MoMS fuse style ability or something similar). Tiger Claw feat describes this as a single unarmed strike, so the entire strike gets the increase.
An unarmed strike is neither a two-handed weapon, a one-handed weapon using two hands nor a primary natural weapon, so Power Attack won't give you the -1/+3 bonus.
Dragon Ferocity would let you use 1.5x Str bonus on both damage rolls of Tiger Claw's strike, just as Dragon Style. If you also used Power Attack, the second damage roll of the strike would add 2x Str bonus per rule of stacking multipliers.
I have a MoMS Monk 2/ Brawler Figher 6 build in society play now.
Tiger claws is only one attack so its your first, you just happen to roll damage twice with it. I haven't picked up Dragon Ferocity yet as I was way ahead on the damage curve early so I haven't felt like I need it yet. But here is the break down as I do it and all GM's I have played with have been fine/ shocked a bit with it.
Str 24 with belt and level advances
Normal punch with Dragon Style 1d6+10str+6PowerAttack++3Class+2Brawling Armor, for 1d6+21
Now add tiger style and you get double +3more Str for 2d6+45
@WRoy you are correct on the Power attack with Dragon Style at least by what I believe is the RAW iterpretation. I have found a lot of people don't play it that way though and haven't been questioned in society I figured if it came up at a table then its only 2 off one attack and 4 off the big one so no biggie :)
Well, if points don't matter then why do you have so many resources dedicated to increasing unarmed strike damage? ;) Things slip by in PFS games all the time, particularly in live public games, because the GMs have enough stuff to track and manage. I personally wouldn't add extra points for Power Attack because it shouldn't be the GM's duty to audit all my roll results, but if nobody in your area cares then more power to you.
PA might add as if using a th weapon although im not entirely sure. usually when a creature has an attack that gives 1.5 str to damage it gets the better pa. this is usually on a dragons bite or a large creature with a slam.
however while i know rules wise why they get the 1.5 damage i dont recall those exceptions mentioning pa. so is it an un written rules paradigm that would apply here?
addressing the usefullness of tigerstyle itself its vdry good for a mom who no longer has pa. additionally its a single attack at your highest bab that means its statistically more likely to hit and if you do crit all of the damage is multiplied. sadly no way to get 15-20 crit range with monk fists.
PA might add as if using a th weapon although im not entirely sure. usually when a creature has an attack that gives 1.5 str to damage it gets the better pa. this is usually on a dragons bite or a large creature with a slam.
however while i know rules wise why they get the 1.5 damage i dont recall those exceptions mentioning pa. so is it an un written rules paradigm that would apply here?
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
Power Attack spells it out for a dragon's bite and similar natural attacks; they aren't exceptions.
Ok, maybe that is where I am getting confused... a Monks unarmed strike is different than a primary natural attack? I figured a Monks fists were his primary natural weapon as what else would be ;) Is there somewhere that spells it out so I can confirm. Thank you for all the responses as well. Trying to clear it up.
Ok, i did a little digging and I found it...
"An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat). The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls."
So there is a distinction but does that last line factor in? If it is treated as a weapon for effects that that give bonuses and this strike is two-handed would that not grant the higher yield or maybe that line means something different?
So there is a distinction but does that last line factor in? If it is treated as a weapon for effects that that give bonuses and this strike is two-handed would that not grant the higher yield or maybe that line means something different?
The strike is not a two-handed weapon. It is a single unarmed strike that allows you to roll individual damage for two hands.