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Gunslinger + Spellslinger= fun?

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Hello all
Considering rolling a spellslinger for a biweekly game and would like a bit of advice. So I've looked around a bit and have seen that it is more useful as a spellslinger to go for Eldritch knight so I will be doing such. however after looking at gunslinger I find that there are a good deal of neat class features, such as grit, nimble,utility shot, and gun training to name a few. So my question is would it be good to run a Spellslinger 3/Gunslinger 7/Eldritch Knight 10(note not the order I plan to take levels)? Not really looking so much for optimization as I am for general enjoyment, but a bit of fine tuning never hurt.

Thank you

Feats and spell suggestion would also be helpful as well

Thank you
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Tsukiyomi wrote:
So I've looked around a bit and have seen that it is more useful as a spellslinger to go for Eldritch knight so I will be doing such.

I am not sure that I agree at all with that assessment. The eldritch knight loses a caster level and gains HP and BAB... which are nice, but by no means needed as a spellslinger.

A spellslinger is still casting spells, just like any other mage. The difference is that if you use a 2 handed gun you get a x3 crit on your spells that you cast through it and you can add the enhancement bonus of your weapon to some of your spells as either a bonus to hit or an increase in DC.

The chances to hit as a spellslinger are the same as any caster. Since you are primarily using either ranged touch or area effect spells through the gun, you don't really need a higher BAB.

Your call though... it isn't like Eldritch Knight is a bad choice, I just don't see it as much of a bonus.

Tsukiyomi wrote:
however after looking at gunslinger I find that there are a good deal of neat class features, such as grit, nimble,utility shot, and gun training to name a few. So my question is would it be good to run a Spellslinger 3/Gunslinger 7/Eldritch Knight 10(note not the order I plan to take levels)? Not really looking so much for optimization as I am for general enjoyment, but a bit of fine tuning never hurt.

From an optimization point of view I think it could be a really good fit. You would have spells to help with your defenses if needed and you can dump spells into your gun through mage bullets to add enhancements as needed for the situation into the gun. Having the right energy type for the right situation is pretty darn good, for example... and since you would likely be getting a magic gun anyway as a gunslinger these abilities stack with it. Again, I am not convinced on the eldritch knight. Yes, you would get further casting progression, but would loose out on the gunslinger stuff... I would use a spell slinger dip as flavor more than a focus.

From a fun or concept point of view it really depends on what your concept for the character is. I can think of some cool character concepts that would go really well with a Gunslinger who dips Spellslinger. If you can and it sounds fun, go for it!

Sean Mahoney

For more indepth thoughts from me on this, I would recommend listening to the first two episodes of my podcast, The Gamers' Guide to Pathfinder!

Sean Mahoney
Jon Brazer Enterprises
Tsukiyomi wrote:
So my question is would it be good to run a Spellslinger 3/Gunslinger 7/Eldritch Knight 10(note not the order I plan to take levels)?

Eldritch Knight requires the ability to cast 3rd-level spells, so you'd have to go Spellslinger 5. My recommendation would be to go Gunslinger 1/Spellslinger 5/Eldritch Knight 10, and then either Gunslinger or Spellslinger for the remainder of your levels, depending on how much spellcasting you want for the character.

Shadow Lodge

A buddy of mine is running a Wizard (Spellslinger)1, Magus (Myrmidarch)10 in our Sepent's Skull Campaign right now and having an absolute blast ;-)

The Myrmidarch archtype allows you to spellstrike at range with ranged touch attacks and mixes incredibly well with 1 lvl of Spellslinger. And since 99% of the time you're aiming for touch AC the 3/4 bab of the Magus is more than enough.

Check it out, it may help your build.

Thank you all for your comments, They are all very helpful

The character concept I'm going for is a "Han solo" etc Spellslinger. A kind of shoot first, high adventure, wise cracking, derring-do kind of guy(in this case a half-elf)

I really think the grit mechanic works well to show off his personality in combat(my gm is allow the daring act variant rule as well), however I wanted a blending of arcane caster hence the spellslinger. Sean makes a fine point about touch ac and casters so I'm going to be dropping the EK. Spellslinger/gunslinger split favoring the spellslinger seem useful? With the half-elf multi-favored class Doubling up on these two classes seems like a good idea. thought?
Sean Mahoney wrote:

For more indepth thoughts from me on this, I would recommend listening to the first two episodes of my podcast, The Gamers' Guide to Pathfinder!

Sean Mahoney

Thank you Sean listening to the podcast now. Awesome to know there's a pathfinder podcast around =D

Tsukiyomi wrote:
Thank you Sean listening to the podcast now. Awesome to know there's a pathfinder podcast around =D

Hope you like it!

I would point out that we get the spellslinger a bit wrong in the podcast in that we didn't realize you could only cast ranged touch, rays, cones, etc. through the gun (we go off on using it for dominate person and such), so we were wrong... other than that though I still love this class. Great blasting fun.

Sean Mahoney

I'm loving the spellslinger idea. Reviewing spell list now and I do plan to dip a few levels into gunslinger. However I have a issue with wizards 15 minute adventuring days and have always been a sorcerer person before this archetype. I realize that cantrips are more of a roleplaying bit, but would getting a dip in another arcane caster class for o-lvl spells or taking magical talent trait be wise? I ask because I'd like to always be firing some form of magic out of the Arcane gun. So would grabbing a o lvl ray of frost thru magical talent work or would I have to dip into another caster class(to which would be magus)

For an up coming game I'll be playing a similar character. After looking at things I decided to go Spellslinger 1/Magus 8(adventure starts at 9). Grit is nice but I would have to take at least 3 lvls of Gunslinger to get some abilities I liked and that took away to much arcane oomph.

Taking magus gets you your cantrips back but you're still limited by your opposition schools as they're prepared spells, and gives some extra gun boosting from your arcane pool. Myrmidarch seems nice, but since it doesn't say that Spellcombat works with ranged weapons, you'd be limited to either casting or shooting your gun, you can't do both. So now the big draw would be Spellstrike being ranged, but Spellslinger already gives you that with a better list of spells to use.

So depending on how much arcane "gun mage" vs gunslinger with some spells you want I'd suggest Spellslinger 1/Magus 19 or Spellslinger 1/ Gunslinger 7/Magus 12
DarkHomer420 wrote:

For an up coming game I'll be playing a similar character. After looking at things I decided to go Spellslinger 1/Magus 8(adventure starts at 9). Grit is nice but I would have to take at least 3 lvls of Gunslinger to get some abilities I liked and that took away to much arcane oomph.

Taking magus gets you your cantrips back but you're still limited by your opposition schools as they're prepared spells, and gives some extra gun boosting from your arcane pool. Myrmidarch seems nice, but since it doesn't say that Spellcombat works with ranged weapons, you'd be limited to either casting or shooting your gun, you can't do both. So now the big draw would be Spellstrike being ranged, but Spellslinger already gives you that with a better list of spells to use.

So depending on how much arcane "gun mage" vs gunslinger with some spells you want I'd suggest Spellslinger 1/Magus 19 or Spellslinger 1/ Gunslinger 7/Magus 12

I'm baseing the build on the full idea of the spellslinger. so we have

A)Spell casted through gun
B)Magically enchanted bullets
I'd like to be able to smooth out some of the wizard inherent issues by taking levels of gunslinger(5-9 levels). Grabbing a lvl in sorcerer(arcane bloodline gun as bonded item)to get cantrips back and set up some go to spells for Arcane gun. Then finish off the rest with wizard( the highest lvl spell I feel i absolutely need is 6th).

So right now I'm looking at Spellslinger 10/Sorcerer 1/gunslinger 9 or Spellslinger 14/sorcerer 1/ Gunslinger 5.

Looking to use spells as "big bang for buck" combat, small utility, default to magic bullets when useful, and having decent survivability. Thoughts?
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Here's a list I made when I was building my spellslinger concept (which I discarded, wasn't the kind of character I wanted to play): all of the cone/line/ray/touch attack spells below level 7 you can use through your gun. Some of them are terrible or make no sense, but the point is you CAN use them through your gun.

I only went up to level 6 spells because the character I was making was not going to reach a level that high for a very long time irl.

list:

Lvl 1: Ray of Enfeeblement, Burning Hands (cone), Color Spray (cone)
Lvl 2: Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Chill Touch (reach), Shocking Grasp (Reach), Corrosive Touch (Reach), Fire Breath, Gust of Wind, Touch of Gracelessness (reach)
Lvl 3: Ray of Exhaustion, Ghoul Touch (reach), Touch of Idiocy (Reach), Frigid Touch (Reach), Pellet Blast, Lightning Bolt, Darkness (reach) Accelerate Poison (reach), Excruciating Deformation (reach)
Lvl 4: Dimensional Anchor, Enervation, Vampiric Touch (Reach), Force Punch (Reach), Healing Thief (Reach), Crushing Despair, Fear, Shout, Dragon's Breath, Daylight (reach)
Lvl 5: Touch of Slime (reach), Cone of Cold, Waves of Fatigue, Bestow Curse (reach) Contagion (Reach), Calcific Touch (Reach), Fleshworm Infestation (Reach)
Lvl 6: Disintegrate, Contagious Flame

Spells with (reach) mean you have to boost them to ranged touch attacks with the reach metamagic feat. I may have missed a few, but there you go. It was how short this list was that made me drop the concept, personally, and just play as an 'eldritch knight archer' type that used guns instead of bows.

From an optimization standpoint, Gunslinger1/Wizard5/EK10 really isn't superior to Gunslinger1/Wizard6/EK/10. Wizard 6 gives you +1 BAB and additional spells, so I argue that holding off EK until Character level 7 is a better choice.

The biggest question that I believe remain unanswered re: the Spellslinger is can you cast spells through a two-handed firearm? Gun Mages in Iron Kingdoms bonded with pistols, but I think a Spellslinger with a rifle would be the way to go, assuming you can cast with a two-handed firearm. If anyone has a ruling on this that I have missed, I would appreciate it.

I look at this character much like I do Arcane Archer. Most AA maximize BAB and lead to Gish builds that max out at 5-7th level spells. I look at Spellslingers and AA a bit differently. My AA is a "Mage with a bow" who casts spells first and shoots second. My Spellslinger is the same way, a "Wizard with a gun," casting spells through my magically enhanced gun, and shooting second. It is amazing how much Spell Focus (Evocation), Gr. Spell Focus (Evocation) and an enchanted gun help ratchet up the DCs of area effect spells.

The list above is a good spell list for the build if you have Evocation and Necromancy. I drop Necromancy (in addition to Abjuration, Enchantment, and Illusion), so these are the spells I use regularly.
1) Burning Hands
2)Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Fire Breath (an underrated spell)
3) Lightning Bolt
4)Shout (very good, almost nothing has Energy Resistance: Sonic), Dragons Breath.

A lot of people seem to want to make the Spellslinger a Sorcerer Bloodline, and that seems fine; however, a really big loss if you do this is a Wizard's access to Knowledge Skills, which will be crucial so you can know what will, and more importantly, will not harm the monsters you face. Energy Resistance is the bane of my build, but good use of a variety of Knowledge Skills helps out tremendously.

Finally, I haven't found that the loss of Cantrips makes much difference, but YMMV.
Tsukiyomi wrote:
However I have a issue with wizards 15 minute adventuring days and have always been a sorcerer person before this archetype. I realize that cantrips are more of a roleplaying bit, but would getting a dip in another arcane caster class for o-lvl spells or taking magical talent trait be wise?

It's your call, obviously, but I don't know that shooting a cantrip through the gun would be worth it. Anytime you cast a spell through the gun it jams if you roll a one to hit or the opponent rolls a 20 on a save. For something that does 1-3 damage I am not sure if that is worth it. The only real advantage I would see is that if you are using a two-handed firearm you get a x3 crit... but even then we are talking 3d3 dmg.

IMO you would be better off just firing normal bullets (and maybe sack a spell to buff it a little), to preserve spells.

All that said, dipping sorcerer would be a great way (through bloodlines) to pump the DC of certain spells even higher and would stack with both feats and your spellslinger abilities for crazy high DCs.

Sean Mahoney
posternutbag wrote:
The biggest question that I believe remain unanswered re: the Spellslinger is can you cast spells through a two-handed firearm? Gun Mages in Iron Kingdoms bonded with pistols, but I think a Spellslinger with a rifle would be the way to go, assuming you can cast with a two-handed firearm. If anyone has a ruling on this that I have missed, I would appreciate it.

The spellslinger description talks specifically about casting through a two-handed weapon when it states that doing so gives you a x3 crit multiplier. Seems pretty clear it would work... and I agree, that is the way to go.

Sean Mahoney
Grand Lodge

Personally, I'd be really wary of any errata that states the spellslingers casting through gun ability only works for the spellslingers arcane spells, not any spellcasting class you take after the one level dip.

This would mean all the spellslinger1/cleric10 or spellslinger1/magus10 class skill leveraging may not be viable following clarification/errata from UC.
Grand Lodge
Tsukiyomi wrote:
I'm loving the spellslinger idea. Reviewing spell list now and I do plan to dip a few levels into gunslinger. However I have a issue with wizards 15 minute adventuring days and have always been a sorcerer person before this archetype. I realize that cantrips are more of a roleplaying bit, but would getting a dip in another arcane caster class for o-lvl spells or taking magical talent trait be wise? I ask because I'd like to always be firing some form of magic out of the Arcane gun. So would grabbing a o lvl ray of frost thru magical talent work or would I have to dip into another caster class(to which would be magus)

Cantrips may be amusing at lower levels, but for higher level stuff.... let the book mages or the other spellcasters deal with them. They're not worth delaying your spellslinger spell level progression for them. The allure of cantrips will disappear once you realize that you'd be putting off the joyus day of focusing a disintegrate spell through your arcane gun. with an additional of +5 to the DC thanks to the mage bullet feature on top of any other bonuses you've made to that DC from spell focus etc.

Besides aside from the fact that you can only fire wizard spells through your gun, there isn't a single cantrip that's worth the trouble.

Sean, I see where having 1 arcane gun gives you a x3 crit multiplier, but I do not see anything about two-handed guns giving you a x3 multiplier. Are you sure? I do see the following text:

Arcane guns are normal one-handed or two-handed firearms in the hands of others, as they were normal firearms before the spellslinger imbued them with magic. In a spellslinger's hands, they both fire projectiles (bullets and pellets) and cast magic.

Irrespective of the crit point, this text leads me to believe that you can cast spells through a two-handed weapon. I guess you take one hand off the rifle for a moment to handle the material and somatic components, then pull the trigger. Or maybe you don't pull the trigger at all, and the gun is sort of like an arcane bonded staff.

At any rate these are my feats for my first 12 levels:
GS 1: Gunsmith, PBS, PrS.
W 1:
W 2: Eschew Materials
W 3:
W 4: Spell Focus (Evoc)
W 5: Piercing Spell (MM)
W 6: Spell Penetration
EK 1: Weapon Focus (Rifle)
EK 2: Gr. Spell Focus (Evoc)
EK 3:
EK 4: Selective Spell (MM)
EK 5: Weapon Spec (Rifle)

Other feat choices would include Deadly Aim (I assume it works for Firearms), Rapid Reload (although with cartridges and advanced firearms it looses some luster) and other metamagic feats. With Piercing Spell and Spell Penetration, I can punch through most Spell Resistance, and with Spell Focus, Gr. Spell Focus, along with an enhancement bonus from my rifle, my DCs are pretty high.

I think PBS and Pr. Shot are absolutely critical, the -4 to AB for firing into melee is a killer, even on touch attacks.

That is pretty much all I have from my Spellslinger, other input is very welcome.

Would the improved crit feat apply to spells fired through the gun, also would Weapon Focus (pick a firearm) add to the attack of a spell fired through the gun (same with weapon specialization)?

Spellslinger 1/ Crossblooded (Orc/Draconic)Sorc 19 works well too.
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