Gunslinger pistol-whip

[Knight Magenta]

The gunslinger pistol-whip deed says that you make a "surprise melee attack." Does this mean the target is flat-footed against it?

Edit: Also, do guns do the damage listed in pistol whip when used as an improvised weapon without this deed?

[Sean Mahoney]

Kirill wrote:

The gunslinger pistol-whip deed says that you make a "surprise melee attack." Does this mean the target is flat-footed against it?

No, that portion of the description is just descriptive not a rules term. Unfortunately you can't really read into it. It would list if they were treated as flat-footed.

Kirill wrote:

Edit: Also, do guns do the damage listed in pistol whip when used as an improvised weapon without this deed?

Hrmm... I don't know that it is spell out anywhere, but I would rule no... but that is not a RAW call.

Sean Mahoney

[Knight Magenta]

Thanks. The flat-footed sounded too good to be true :)

[KCRift]

At the cost of 1 Grit point vs. "as long as you have at least 1 grit point", it SHOULD treat the opponent as flat-footed. It's a pretty expensive deed when compared to some of the others.

If I were going to write it, I would say something like:

Pistol-Whip (Ex): At 3rd level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, he can make a melee attack with the butt or handle of her firearm as a standard action. If the gunslinger desires, he can instead spend 1 grit point to surprise the opponent. Opponents surprised in this fashion are considered flat-footed for this attack and, if the attack hits, the gunslinger can make a combat maneuver check to knock the target prone as a free action.

One-handed firearms deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if wielded by Small creatures) and two-handed firearms deal 1d10 points of damage (1d8 if wielded by Small creatures). Regardless of the gunslinger’s size, the critical multiplier of this attack is 20/×2.

If that seems too OP, then perhaps remove the Prone combat maneuver.

[Lobolusk]

I was under the impression that if you used the pistol whip deed you got the damage listed, if you just pistol whipped has a melee attack it would be improvised damage.

[Sgt Spectre]

I actually like that KCRift

I havent played a gunslinger yet, but the concept is interesting.

Now what about if you are using some of those old Spanish 6 shot sword revolvers from the 1620's? Then you would always have a blade/ weapon present, so you wouldnt technically be unarmed in melee and you could perhaps do something nastier than a simple pistol whip? Kinda like the rules for bladed pistols in Iron Kingdoms?

[Ziltor]

I disagree with Sean's analysis, Surprise is indeed a rules term.

The rules taken directly from the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document read as follows:

Surprise

When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.

Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

Furthermore, specific rules almost always take precedence over general rules. Meaning that if Pistol-Whip specifically states "surprise melee attack" your opponent is caught unaware and they are flat-footed. This overrides the general rule that combatants can only be surprised at the beginning of combat.

Pistol-Whip is a surprise attack, the opponent is unaware of it and you have used a resource to use a class given ability.

[RJGrady]

That defines surprise rounds, not surprise attacks. Surprise attacks are not a game term... unless you mean that rogue ability. Since the rogue ability, which is called Surprise Attack, specifies that opponents are treated as flat-footed, that more than sufficiently implies that the phrase "surprise attack" does not encompass the notion of being flat-footed.

[Whale_Cancer]

Seems FAQ-worthy. I kind of suspect they left out the flat footed text by accident. It's just not worth it - at all - if it costs 1 grit.

[Avatar-1]

The weird thing about clarifying this seems to be that the same thing applies to the whole class and how it's overpowered.

Without trying to derail the thread too much,

which I think I did, oops:

it seems that the intent with gunslingers - and for better balance - would have been for shooting a gun to hit flatfooted AC, not touch AC. It makes sense that it would be incredibly difficult to dodge a bullet, but that good armor would still be able to stop the attack - not the other way around.

I'm bringing this up not because I hate gunslingers or their power (I have one, but admittedly, he's tough and I've had to made a conscious choice to weaken him), but because if you want to toughen up Pistol Whip - which makes sense - it also makes sense to weaken him in that other area, which makes sense as well. So both sides are more balanced.