I have a party of 4 level 5 adventures, all using the stat array or 18,15,14,13,12,11 they where all given level 5 gold wealth for their level, 10,500.
All for of them are classes with animal companions and they all took boon familiar if they needed too to get the highest possible Animal Companion. A ranger, a Inquisitor with the animal Domain, A Cavalier beast rider, and a summoner with an Eldion, which technically not a AnCo its actually better.
My question is, what would be the average CR for them? Would this be a factor?
Do I take into account that there are 4 5HD creatures following and aiding them, or since that is part of their class, they still count as a normal level 5 party. I know if someone has leadership, your suppose to take into account the cohort when calculating CR.
I'm not having a problem so far just going off normal encounters, but I'm not sure if I should be taking this into account.
Also, side question, does Augment Summoning work on Eldion? It says Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a... It is a 3.5 feat, but I allowed it, but I wasn't sure if it worked on the Eldion, since its a ritual? It wasn't a big problem, since his 4 weapon fighting creature was missing 50% of the time against creatures with an AC of 16, but just making sure.
Ordinarily, animal companions or eidilons are not factored into CR as they are a class feature, and thus in theory have already been accounted for. In your case with so many of them, I would probably bump the CR 1 or 2 (+ 1 CR for every 2 or 3 additional bodies seems apppropriate) just because of the action efficiency, but even that depends on if they actually have their animal companion with them at the time, and if they can actually contribute to the encounter without becoming instant lunch meat.
Ordinarily, animal companions or eidilons are not factored into CR as they are a class feature, and thus in theory have already been accounted for. In your case with so many of them, I would probably bump the CR 1 or 2 (+ 1 CR for every 2 or 3 additional bodies seems apppropriate) just because of the action efficiency, but even that depends on if they actually have their animal companion with them at the time, and if they can actually contribute to the encounter without becoming instant lunch meat.
The beast master is using his Companion as a mount, but its a T-rex so it is more then capable of using its bite. I believe its a ride check to attack as well? I'm not to clear on mounted combat rules.
The Eldion is a Winged Bipedal 4 weapon fighter. The Inquisitor has a Large Ape wearing light armor and wielding a great axe, doing 3d6+8 damage per hit. The ranger just has a wolf, nothing fancy.
It's not a different CR for having the companions (though you may want to adjust CR for other reasons), but the different composition will have a large impact on playstyle.
Hordes of enemies cannot surround and get the flanks they need, but fireballers will be that much worse. Some companions have evasion, but how about a medusa's AoE gaze calling for that many more saves or a confusion dropped in the middle of the party turning even a couple of people/critters on each other = ouch.
Big bad guys will get swarmed, and the effects of grapple/trip/evil eye/etc. get compounded that much more when augmenting so many attacks on him.
And Haste/bard song/Prayer become huge (8 attackers-16+ attacks, at those levels=instant death). (Not that they can Haste everyone yet.)
(And wait until the Cavalier dishes out some neat Teamwork feats, say for 1d6 Sneak Attack for everyone...)
On the flip side, that's a lot more spells needed to protect against fire/charm/etc. Until they get 'mass' spells, they're going to have a hard time buffing up every melee combatant, essentially you have 2x the combatants at about 2/3-3/4 efficiency each.
Run well, in large spaces, they won't need to buff. Run poorly, or in tight spaces/odd situations where coordination becomes difficult, they'll have harder times.
"We have to go up this cliff." = Sigh...
Logistics/food/enhanced mobility/area hazards, all become bigger issues for this party, and more of a drain on resources.
Need to go through a water-filled tunnel? Uh-oh.
(Used to have a PC's bear with Spider Climb every day while they explored some 3D caverns, learned a 'trick' to adjust to the ability.)
Creatures immune to weapon damage (oozes/swarms/etc.), incorporeal or DR/magic(etc) become worse, and some undead can't even be approached by animals.
The party has major weaknesses with that composition. The trick isn't adjusting CR for them, it's to fairly give them a mix of encounters where their numbers dominate and where their numbers (and limited Int/abilities of companions) hamper. Because their success will fluctuate more than a normal group (IMO), it may seem 'unfair' when their weaknesses arise. If you use published material, you're innocent, but if you homebrew, they may just avoid entering dungeons and romp around outside as much as possible. Forcing them into places they know they're weaker may be interpreted in negative ways (even if you homebrewed it before their PCs were written.)
Outside, with space to spread/flank and flat terrain, this group will destroy CR+3 easily. (many exceptions exist) But in a normal dungeon, with a mix of tight corridors/chutes/portcullises/terrain/environmental hazards/bizarre creatures, they shouldn't do any better/worse than any other group.
Oh, and I think, in such a group, good players will play better and bad players will fare worse. If these are tactically sound players, you'll have to up your game (and CRs) to give them a challenge. If unsound, they'll fall over each other and do some of your work for you.
My 2 c.p.
It's not a different CR for having the companions (though you may want to adjust CR for other reasons), but the different composition will have a large impact on playstyle.
Hordes of enemies cannot surround and get the flanks they need, but fireballers will be that much worse. Some companions have evasion, but how about a medusa's AoE gaze calling for that many more saves or a confusion dropped in the middle of the party turning even a couple of people/critters on each other = ouch.
Big bad guys will get swarmed, and the effects of grapple/trip/evil eye/etc. get compounded that much more when augmenting so many attacks on him.
And Haste/bard song/Prayer become huge (8 attackers-16+ attacks, at those levels=instant death). (Not that they can Haste everyone yet.)
(And wait until the Cavalier dishes out some neat Teamwork feats, say for 1d6 Sneak Attack for everyone...)On the flip side, that's a lot more spells needed to protect against fire/charm/etc. Until they get 'mass' spells, they're going to have a hard time buffing up every melee combatant, essentially you have 2x the combatants at about 2/3-3/4 efficiency each.
Run well, in large spaces, they won't need to buff. Run poorly, or in tight spaces/odd situations where coordination becomes difficult, they'll have harder times.
"We have to go up this cliff." = Sigh...
Logistics/food/enhanced mobility/area hazards, all become bigger issues for this party, and more of a drain on resources.
Need to go through a water-filled tunnel? Uh-oh.
(Used to have a PC's bear with Spider Climb every day while they explored some 3D caverns, learned a 'trick' to adjust to the ability.)Creatures immune to weapon damage (oozes/swarms/etc.), incorporeal or DR/magic(etc) become worse, and some undead can't even be approached by animals.
The party has major weaknesses with that composition. The trick isn't adjusting CR for them, it's to fairly give them a mix of encounters where their numbers dominate and where their numbers (and limited Int/abilities of...
One player knows the game quite well, as he was my DM for a few campaigns, he is the summoner. Another player is intermediate, he made his character for more hilarity and fun then fun, he is riding on a Dinosaur and using two revolvers. His class is not nearly as optimized as it could be. The Ranger, has played before, but this is probably his 3rd or 4th campaign he has been in, and he was having horrible luck last time. The Inquisitor was actually a character I made and gave to the new player at the last minute. Who has never played the game before. I was giving him "advice" through out combat. By which I mean, I kept reminding him to use his swift action to bane his weapons, and to switch weapons when it seemed appropriate.
So only two players really know what they are "doing" so I am not to worried about them being "Over powered" at all. I'm more worried that I might send in mobs that might be too much for them. I'm trying to not bore them, nor do I want them to get slaughtered. I am already allowing the inquisitor to cast any spell his character is physically capable of casting without having to prepare it. Due to him being new.
On a side note, how does skills work for animal companions? I was not quite clear on that. Do they only get 1 skill per hit dice, and can they only pick from the animal companion skill list or be consider "class skills", even if they have an int of 3?
Until the players gain enough skills for the Summoner to lead their PCs (character to character, not player to player) you should be fine, and he should be able to protect them enough to survive normal battles.
If you send mobs in overlapping waves you should be fine because you can pull the last wave if there are bad rolls. If all the baddies are on the table when things go rough, remember baddies might capture (for slavery/ransom/torture) or, if losing too many friends, flee simply not to die (even if they could 'win') or waste rounds binding wounds (which PCs do, so why not NPCs).
Without area healing, this group will need to rest often, or burn them CLW wands fast.
With all the newbies, start straightforward until they can master flanking/charging/readying/etc. then ramp up the complexity every few combats throwing in a twist until most every combat has a twist to adapt to. Sometimes a new type of monster/ability is twist enough.
5th is a tad high for a newbie, so you may want to give them 'combat option' cards/charts so they can see their choices and the effects they have. Leave out trip/grapple/etc until relevant.
I suspect somebody's probably already made such a sheet, but wouldn't know where to search.
Anyway, good luck, sounds like you'll have fun.
The Inquisitor has a Large Ape wearing light armor and wielding a great axe
I have no words.
New development, a level 5 Paladin joins the party. The player is pretty familiar with the game. Going with 18,15,14,13,12,11 stats, and he is going to be a Aasimar, as far as he has told me.
Point is, he has a mount at level 5! Again, not too worried, but I am already fuzzy on how to deal with the CR of a 5 player party. How are you suppose to deal with one that has 5 players now, and all of them with AnCos. :p
Never been really worried about Paladin mounts, they are mostly just horses, and are there to move the paladin around.
He is going Paladin, because I told him the party didn't really have many healers, so he wanted to use his lay on hands to help further heal the party. He didn't want to go cleric though because he wanted to have fun RPing. :p
The Inquisitor has a Large Ape wearing light armor and wielding a great axe
I have no words.
It is as awesome as it sounds, and he is riding it shooting people with a long bow. Did I mention they are technically pirates. "Not really, but, plot plot plot, blah blah blah... :p"
I'm going to assume everyone told me everything I will probably need to know, which in that case. Thank you. :)
The Inquisitor has a Large Ape wearing light armor and wielding a great axe
I have no words.
I'm wondering if that is legal. He may be trying to pull a fast one.
Check this post here for a clarification on animal companions. The training rule will also limit additional actions somewhat.