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Does Dazing Spell force five saves to resist if I hit a single target with five bolts of magic missile?
The feat clearly states "when a creature takes damage from this spell." Most people seem to think that if I hit five targets with 5 bolts they would all need to make saves. It has also been said that an acid arrow or similar ongoing damaging effect could force a save every time it deals damage.
Therefore, it is logical to assume that the individual bolts of magic missile are separate sources of damage in the same way that acid arrow has separate round to round damage rolls, right?
Or is that too cheesy and against RAW?
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Does Dazing Spell force five saves to resist if I hit a single target with five bolts of magic missile?
The feat clearly states "when a creature takes damage from this spell." Most people seem to think that if I hit five targets with 5 bolts they would all need to make saves. It has also been said that an acid arrow or similar ongoing damaging effect could force a save every time it deals damage.
Therefore, it is logical to assume that the individual bolts of magic missile are separate sources of damage in the same way that acid arrow has separate round to round damage rolls, right?
Or is that too cheesy and against RAW?
didnt you already post this with tripping spell?
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Don't you only make a SR check 1 time vs. a Magic Missile spell even if you are hit by multiple missiles? if so then no save on each missile and that is the way I would think the rule works. If you play by different set of rules and from my readings of most of your posts I actually believe you do then play it that way.
Does Dazing Spell force five saves to resist if I hit a single target with five bolts of magic missile?
The feat clearly states "when a creature takes damage from this spell." Most people seem to think that if I hit five targets with 5 bolts they would all need to make saves. It has also been said that an acid arrow or similar ongoing damaging effect could force a save every time it deals damage.
Therefore, it is logical to assume that the individual bolts of magic missile are separate sources of damage in the same way that acid arrow has separate round to round damage rolls, right?
Or is that too cheesy and against RAW?
Most spells only do damage, once so I am thinking that when rules are written they use the most common occurrence of an event. I would not allow my PC's to do it, nor would I allow my NPC's to force 5 saves since I don't think that is in the spirit of the rules.
On another note a GM may rule that all the magic missiles hit at once so technically if all the damage happens at once....<--Now I think this is a copout, and I would just tell the player the spirit of the rules would not allow it at my table. My players also know that any trick they bring into play is fair game so asking me for super combo X is may be giving my NPC's permission to do the same.
The RAW could be interpreted either way - either "when" is defined in relation to the source of damage, or the time at which the damage is taken. If it's the former, it's five saves since each is a different source of damage. If it's the latter, it's only one save as the damage is simultaneous.
Until we get a FAQ on it, it could go either way. I'd probably say one save, simply due to magic missile already being a good casting interruptor and it doesn't need even more going for it.
More dangerous than magic missile would be scorching ray though.
I prefer if it's one save, simply because less popular spells like flaming sphere and acid arrow gain a lot of power while more popular spells like magic missile and scorching ray gains a little less power (but still a plenty).
EDIT: And to wraithstrike, I don't think it's a copout to say they strike simultaneously, as they DO strike simultaneously.
Didn't you already post this with tripping spell?
I may have. I have really terrible memory.
Didn't you already post this with tripping spell?I may have. I have really terrible memory.
I asked with the Toppling Spell feat.
I'm still unsure which way this should go. I see five main options, deliberately grouped.
A) 5 missiles hit one person all at once with only one save.
B) 5 missiles hit one person forcing five saves.
C) 5 missiles hit 5 people forcing 5 saves.
D) 5 missiles hit 5 people, though only one save is permitted, caster's choice.
E) Multiple Missiles hitting the same target cause the DC to stack at +2, in the same way that Poison does.
It seems most people think C is fine, which makes the choice between A and B difficult.
However, I think B may be appropriate considering the Caster Level required to send 5 MMs. Also remember that the Caster has specially prepared this spell at a higher slot, and will probably only have two of it prepared at most. Probably.
If option A were enforced, then it should be paired with D, don't you think? In which case, I think 5 saves is the way to go.
I think my favourite, however, is E, especially when you look at the CMD of appropriate monsters or NPC builds.
Didn't you already post this with tripping spell?I may have. I have really terrible memory.I asked with the Toppling Spell feat.
I'm still unsure which way this should go. I see five main options, deliberately grouped.
A) 5 missiles hit one person all at once with only one save.
B) 5 missiles hit one person forcing five saves.C) 5 missiles hit 5 people forcing 5 saves.
D) 5 missiles hit 5 people, though only one save is permitted, caster's choice.E) Multiple Missiles hitting the same target cause the DC to stack at +2, in the same way that Poison does.
It seems most people think C is fine, which makes the choice between A and B difficult.
However, I think B may be appropriate considering the Caster Level required to send 5 MMs. Also remember that the Caster has specially prepared this spell at a higher slot, and will probably only have two of it prepared at most. Probably.If option A were enforced, then it should be paired with D, don't you think? In which case, I think 5 saves is the way to go.
I think my favourite, however, is E, especially when you look at the CMD of appropriate monsters or NPC builds.
I really don't like E. Example: 9th level wizard casts a heightened dazing magic missile as a 5th level spell, and has an Int of 24. Normal DC would a will save of 22. She fires the spell at a froghemoth (CR: 13, will +11). With option A it needs an 11 to avoid being dazed for 5 rounds. With option E it would need a 19 to save.
Granted, I'm not thrilled with B in this scenario either. Having to make five saving throws at a DC 11, which is actually worse than needing a 19 on one roll. 5 rounds of dazing is an eternity in combat time.
I really don't like E. Example: 9th level wizard casts a heightened dazing magic missile as a 5th level spell, and has an Int of 24. Normal DC would a will save of 22. She fires the spell at a froghemoth (CR: 13, will +11). With option A it needs an 11 to avoid being dazed for 5 rounds. With option E it would need a 19 to save.
Granted, I'm not thrilled with B in this scenario either. Having to make five saving throws at a DC 11, which is actually worse than needing a 19 on one roll. 5 rounds of dazing is an eternity in combat time.
...but, But, BUT BUT!
now you're talking about a 5th level spell. That is a significant investment to fill that slot with a Heightened Dazing MM. Compare it to some other 5th level spells AND remember it has TWO Feats applied to it.Apples and Oranges.
Personally, I'm leaning more toward E, stack like Poison. I like that it increases the DC with Caster Level (via the number of missiles you can cast) and it uses a game mechanic from something similar (like 5 spider bites).
now you're talking about a 5th level spell. That is a significant investment to fill that slot with a Heightened Dazing MM. Compare it to some other 5th level spells AND remember it has TWO Feats applied to it.Apples and Oranges.
Personally, I'm leaning more toward E, stack like Poison. I like that it increases the DC with Caster Level (via the number of missiles you can cast) and it uses a game mechanic from something similar (like 5 spider bites).
D and E are both house rules and not anywhere near RAW. C is RAW. The discussion is about whether A or B is most relevant since those are open for interpretation.
No other 5th level spell has a DC that high (though with dazing, it could only be heightened one level to a 2nd level spell). Getting +8 DC on a spell is HUGE. As a 9th level caster, forcing a DC 27 (10+2+7+8) save-or-lose is far too much. Compare to other 5th level spells, yes, say baleful polymorph and hold monster. These are seen as among the absolute best save or suck for level 5. For the two feats, take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus with the school in question.
Baleful Polymorph: 45 ft. range, DC 24 save or lose physical advantages, second DC 24 save or suck.
Hold Person: 190 ft. range, DC 24 save or suck, higher limitation but new save every turn. Does not work against undead, constructs, vermin, or anyone else with immunity to mind-affecting.
Dazing magic missile: 190 ft. range, DC 27 save or suck, works against more or less everything, 5d4+5 damage, can be turned into crowd control if need be.
So it gets the best range, can target the largest amount of enemies, can be spread as need be without having to reprepare, deals damage and has a DC _3_ points higher! (that's equal to 6 points of intelligence, you know).
Which is best in certain situations?
Against big stupid living monster: Hold person or missile
Against several living enemies: missile
Against big stupid unliving monster: missile
Against several unliving enemies: missile
Against ranged guys: missile.
Against casters: missile (remember concentration checks)
Against vermin: missile
Against pseudo-casters that keep close (npc bards, many outsiders): baleful polymorph or missile.
See the general trend? And as said, that's without taking metamagic rods into account.
Magic missle mage makes a comeback in Pathfinder?
I wonder how early this could come online.