Wow reading through primitive materials the arrows made from primitive materials seem to be better than regular arrows. First stone and obsidian arrows weigh less and they lose hardness and gain fragile. Well if you have a magic bow the arrow gets destroyed anyhow and they weigh less so you can carry more arrows. Also stone arrows are cheap like crazy.
If your bow is nonmagical and you roll a 1 the arrow gets broken well half the arrows you fire that miss are already destroyed so what.
I have never seen or thought of sundering someones arrows as they could just draw another.
Although tihs may make me labeled a powergamer if I try to get all obsidian arrows to start out. Althought this might fight an urban barbarain that is an archer well though. This works with stone sling bullets as well.
I'm of the opinion that all of the primitive arrows start with the broken condition, thereby making them balanced.
I am thinking more the weight is off making them broken not having them do less damage. the problem with the broken condition would be someone with the mending spell might try to take all of the time in game to fix the arrows and that is not a good solution. Then why the hell do blunt arrows weigh 3 lbs as well per 20 arrows while obsidian arrows weigh 2 and 3/4 pounds this makes little sense I think you should just make them weigh more to standard arrows that might fix them. It may add up over time but your income is increasing so much I do not think it matters.
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I'm of the opinion that all of the primitive arrows start with the broken condition, thereby making them balanced.I am thinking more the weight is off making them broken not having them do less damage. the problem with the broken condition would be someone with the mending spell might try to take all of the time in game to fix the arrows and that is not a good solution.
No, they could mend it all day long, but it's a simply inferior arrow, which means that it will never lose the broken condition.
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No, they could mend it all day long, but it's a simply inferior arrow, which means that it will never lose the broken condition.I'm of the opinion that all of the primitive arrows start with the broken condition, thereby making them balanced.I am thinking more the weight is off making them broken not having them do less damage. the problem with the broken condition would be someone with the mending spell might try to take all of the time in game to fix the arrows and that is not a good solution.
really... you guys are trying to gimp an already gimped type of character?
archers are inferior to melee as is... just let them have some damn lite arrows.|
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I have no problem with archers having a cheaper arrow, it isn't like a huge amount of money is being lost if not. Just saying they aren't so weak and need this as a balancing factor.
really? have you seen the barbarian builds on this forum? the ninja/rogue builds? let alone the wizard/sorcerer builds? just let them have a cheaper arrow. sheesh
and im not saying that archers are the bastard children of paizo, but they are weaker then melee characters. this isnt a " power" gaming option because it doesnt do anything but allow them to save some cash.
thats all i was trying to say
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really? have you seen the barbarian builds on this forum? the ninja/rogue builds? let alone the wizard/sorcerer builds? just let them have a cheaper arrow. sheesh
Really? Have you seen the archer builds on this forum?
I disagree, archers are still incredibly powerful, and they only continue to grow as new books come out.
This is more of a verisimilitude thing though, I don't think primitive arrows should be better than regular arrows, when I run games I tell players who build archers to not worry about ammo until I tell them to.
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I disagree, archers are still incredibly powerful, and they only continue to grow as new books come out.
This is more of a verisimilitude thing though, I don't think primitive arrows should be better than regular arrows, when I run games I tell players who build archers to not worry about ammo until I tell them to.
and to that i say ... " why not" so just because the Native Americans use stone arrows instead of iron tipped, they are less effective? an arrow is an arrow, just because one is labeled "primitive" doesn't mean it less effective.
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and to that i say ... " why not" so just because the Native Americans use stone arrows instead of iron tipped, they are less effective? an arrow is an arrow, just because one is labeled "primitive" doesn't mean it less effective.
Maybe, but this isn't just "as effective" this is "as effective, cheaper, and lighter"
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and to that i say ... " why not" so just because the Native Americans use stone arrows instead of iron tipped, they are less effective? an arrow is an arrow, just because one is labeled "primitive" doesn't mean it less effective.Maybe, but this isn't just "as effective" this is "as effective, cheaper, and lighter"
but they are ... stone is nearly FREE, stone is LIGHTER per inch then iron, and just as EFFECTIVE at killing. i dont see the issue. seems more like you are upset at paizo for allowing an alternative to the standard arrow.
the one thing i could very easily see you doing as a dm, is saying that in a "civilized society" they wouldn't have the skill to create a stone arrow. i think they introduced these arrows for fletchers to make arrows out in the wilderness. the lower cost speeds up the crafting process.
Might have made sense to increase DR by +1 vs. stone arrows.
funny note : the best arrows dont use tips at all,"wood" tips arrows or arrower that are just sharped sticks tind to fly better and are faster and easer to make.
when speacking of primitive arrows.
that depends on the wood at hand. iron wood yes, balsa wood .... hell no lolfunny note : the best arrows dont use tips at all,"wood" tips arrows or arrower that are just sharped sticks tind to fly better and are faster and easer to make.
when speacking of primitive arrows.
pecan or other hickorys as well as pine
the reason that iron or steel arrowheads were adopted is b/c the tips are sharper and faster to make, requiring less specialized skill. Carefully chipping away at one stone w/ another to shape a complex and effective arrowhead is very difficult and was the pinnacle of Human technology for 10,000 years+, until the advent of copper smelting.
The reason that they dumped stone for metal is that once iron ore is available it is very fast to make arrow heads, just pour melted iron into a mold and sharpen.
Also invoking the effectiveness of Native Americans is not really applicable. Native American's effectiveness had much more to do with their superior knowledge of the local geography and guerrilla tactics than their arrowhead design. Additionally, Native Americans were using stone/bone/wood arrows against unarmored opponents. The US army had abandoned armor b/c it was ineffective against a modern army, but iron and steel arrowheads are significantly more efficient against heavy leather or steel armor than other materials.
i.e. using stone arrowheads against a Wizard is no problem, but will just as likely shatter as pierce a breastplate or similar metal armor. This is very easily modeled by a reduction in damage/to hit.
Balsa is the strongest wood lb/lb. Not that anyone would want an arrow made out of Balsa it is too soft but it should fly very well.
edited for clarification
In pathfinder isn't there darkwood which makes less sense than obsidian arrows. A light wood that weighs half as much yet is just as hard. It also makes just as good a quarterstaff or club or greatclub that deals as much damage. Also I am pretty sure you can make darkwood blunt arrows that deal just as much damage.
the reason that iron or steel arrowheads were adopted is b/c the tips are sharper and faster to make, requiring less specialized skill. Carefully chipping away at one stone w/ another to shape a complex and effective arrowhead is very difficult and was the pinnacle of Human technology for 10,000 years+, until the advent of copper smelting.
The reason that they dumped stone for metal is that once iron ore is available it is very fast to make arrow heads, just pour melted iron into a mold and sharpen.
Also invoking the effectiveness of Native Americans is not really applicable. Native American's effectiveness had much more to do with their superior knowledge of the local geography and guerrilla tactics than their arrowhead design. Additionally, Native Americans were using stone/bone/wood arrows against unarmored opponents. The US army had abandoned armor b/c it was ineffective against a modern army, but iron and steel arrowheads are significantly more efficient against heavy leather or steel armor than other materials.
i.e. using stone arrowheads against a Wizard is no problem, but will just as likely shatter as pierce a breastplate or similar metal armor. This is very easily modeled by a reduction in damage/to hit.
This makes sense but armor piercing is not really modeled well by the rules for any other weapon. WAsn't chainmail not that effective at taking arrows?
Also, please note that while obsidian is brittle, it is still used as a scalpel today because it's edge is only about 3 nanometers thick..
That's very sharp.
All a crafty caster needs to do is create a spell that hardens it or regenerates it's edge and you have a weapon that qualifies for the keen quality based on it's natural properties.
Talk about a cool item for an assassin or a rogue, a regenerating obsidian knife that allows you to break off the tip in an opponent and it just regrows.
Make it even deadlier by making that obsidian grow in your victim..
Good stuff.
Also, please note that while obsidian is brittle, it is still used as a scalpel today because it's edge is only about 3 nanometers thick..
That's very sharp.All a crafty caster needs to do is create a spell that hardens it or regenerates it's edge and you have a weapon that qualifies for the keen quality based on it's natural properties.
Talk about a cool item for an assassin or a rogue, a regenerating obsidian knife that allows you to break off the tip in an opponent and it just regrows.
Make it even deadlier by making that obsidian grow in your victim..
Good stuff.
If you think about it by the rules shooting it out of magic bow increases its hardness because it becomes a magic weapon. Yeah maybe make ammunition with the fragile quality break after it has shot if it misses always would make sense.
I just had a look at my 1,500,000 year old Oldowan core flake hand axe, and my 64,000 year old arrowhead from Sterkfontein.
Please explain to me again how fragile stone tools are.
Smash 'em against some maximillian plate armour and get back to us... ;)I just had a look at my 1,500,000 year old Oldowan core flake hand axe, and my 64,000 year old arrowhead from Sterkfontein.
Please explain to me again how fragile stone tools are.
The rules are such that all arrows that hit the target are destroyed for even steel arrowheads.
...Please explain to me again how fragile stone tools are.
This is not about stone "tools", it is about fine stone instruments like blades, needing to be quite thin.
So take Obsidian for instance and chip it into a short sword, it will be very very sharp - and break upon first use because it is brittle.
Lol, there'r also feats that work with this kind of primitive weapons...
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The rules are such that all arrows that hit the target are destroyed for even steel arrowheads.
That's kinda' the point I was making - the 'fragile' quality has zero effect on whether something can last for a few thousand years buried underground or not, it just means the thing breaks on an attack roll of '1' (and only breaks the first time, taking another '1' before it's been mended to be 'destroyed' - i.e. broken beyond the means of repair).
So saying a five zillion year old stone handaxe has survived has nothing to do with the actual fragile quality, as defined by the game, which is being discussed. Doing something with that ancient handaxe which would provoke the game's definition of the fragile quality - i.e. smashing it into an armoured target - may well end in a similar or worse real world result to the broken condition an in-game 'fragile' quality weapon would suffer.
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What's the cheapest thrown weapon you can make with primitive materials to use with the Splintering Weapon Feat (UC page 120)? Quick Draw, Splintering Weapon, and a set of stone daggers (at 1gp a pop) would seem to be a pretty darn good combo, especially at low levels. Stone shuriken (not being in the permitted weapon types for any of the primative materials) don't seem possible.
This makes sense but armor piercing is not really modeled well by the rules for any other weapon. WAsn't chainmail not that effective at taking arrows?
Yes it is, by bonus/penalty to both Attack Bonus (represents your ability not just to hit but to hit and have that hit cause damage) and Damage.
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I'm sorry, what archer worth his fletchings doesn't just buy cold iron arrows anyway?
Also, if stone arrows are so great, why did we stop using them? Iron/Steel tips require a forge and smelting and 80's montages to make. Stone tipped arrows require a bit of foraging, a bit of chipping to make it arrow shaped and some twine or whatever to stick them on with.
Metal hardly seems worth the effort but they did it, so why?