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Improvised Weapons have always been a problem for me, so a little clarification from the community would be welcomed.
Improvised Weapons (Melee):
What can and cannot be used an improvised weapon (melee)? Can an actual weapon be an Improvised Weapon (melee)? Or is it restricted to non-weapon objects?
If melee weapons can be improvised melee weapons, do weapon features/enchantments apply? What is the damage type for an improvised weapon (melee)? Does it vary and wouldn't it almost always be Bludgeoning damage?
Here's an example:
Let's assume a sample character is not proficient with a longsword. This character attempts to use it as an improvised weapon (without the Catch Off Guard feat) do they take -8 on their attack roll? Or is impossible for a character to be doubly non-proficient with a weapon?
Improvised Weapons (Ranged):
Does throwing a weapon that is not meant to be thrown constitute using a Improvised Ranged Weapon?
The rules state that a Weapon that is not designed to be Thrown, can be Thrown. Then it goes on to list the rules for doing this, some of which sound very similar to the Improvised Weapon rules regarding ranged weapons.
Do weapon features/enchantments apply when the weapon that is not meant to be thrown is thrown?
The rules state a character throwing a weapon that is not meant to be thrown takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. The rules then further state that to use an Improvised Ranged weapon the character takes -4 to their attack roll for nonproficiency.
Is this in addition to the -4 for the weapon being considered an improvised thrown weapon? Or does using a weapon in this manner not count as being an improvised thrown weapon? Again is impossible for a character to be doubly non-proficient with a weapon?
Do weapon features/enchantments apply when the weapon is thrown as an Improvised Ranged Weapon?
One of the main focuses of this mental exercise is:
If it is possible to use a weapon as an improvised weapon, one could get Catch Off Guard/Throw Anything and use pretty much any Exotic weapon in the game without penalties (just a poor crit range). Which is why I'm an advocate for the double penalty.
Improvised Weapons have always been a problem for me, so a little clarification from the community would be welcomed.
Improvised Weapons (melee):
What can and cannot be used an improvised weapon (melee)? Can an actual weapon be an Improvised Weapon (melee)? Or is it restricted to non weapon objects?
I'd say this is a house decision. If you want to use a large greatsword as an improvised weapon, I'd say you wouldn't necessarily be able to use it at its full damage. Other wise taking Catch Off-Guard basically gives you free proficiency with every weapon.
If melee weapons can be improvised melee weapons, do weapon features/enchantments apply? What is the damage type for an improvised weapon (melee)?Here's an example:
Let's assume a sample character is not proficient with a longsword. This character attempts to use it as an improvised weapon (without the Catch Off Guard feat) do they take -8 on their attack roll? Or is impossible for a character to be doubly non-proficient with a weapon?
I'd say no, the weapon either counts as an improvised weapon, a simple weapon, a martial weapon, or an exotic weapon. I don't think those categories overlap.
@slamevil
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about the Improvised Ranged Weapons section of the post. I just finished editing it :D
So what about whips and bladed scarves? I'm playing a Monk of the Empty Hand and there don't seem to be any specific rules on how to use them.
Improvised Weapons
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
So the -4 improvised weapon penalty IS the -4 nonproficiency penalty. They never stack with each other. A person cannot meaningfully use a longsword's blade as an improvised weapon. They just aren't proficient with it. It will deal d8 damage and only crit on a 20 for X2 damage (as all improvised weapons).
You can use weapons in a manner besides what they are intended as improvised weapons, however. For example, you could bash someone on the head with the pommel of the longsword. For something like this, you just look for the closest approximation. A longsword pommel bash is a lot like a light mace, so it would do d6 bludgeoning damage. Stabbing at someone with an arrow is a lot like stabbing with a dagger, so that's d4 piercing. Broken chair leg = club --> d6 bludgeoning. And so forth.
Ranged weapons are the same way. If you are using a bow non-proficiently, then you just take the -4. If you are chucking a sword not designed to be chucked, you take -4 on the attack roll, but it deals damage as a sword with a 10' range increment and 20/X2 crit. If you are throwing a chair leg, then it does d6 bludgeoning with a 10' range increment. Etc.
@bascaria
Do you get to add enchancement bonuses (or equivalents like flaming) when attacking with an improvised weapon?
What about utilizing weapon features such as brace, disarm, reach trip, etc?
If yes, then Catch Off Guard becomes sort of a catch all feat to enable various kinds of weapon proficiency.
@bascaria
Do you get to add enchancement bonuses (or equivalents like flaming) when attacking with an improvised weapon?
What about utilizing weapon features such as brace, disarm, reach trip, etc?
If yes, then Catch Off Guard becomes sort of a catch all feat to enable various kinds of weapon proficiency.
There has been much discussion of just this topic with no clear answer. I come down pretty heavily on the no, you don't get enhancement bonuses, masterwork bonuses, or anything else when using an improvised weapon.
If you are using a weapon you are not proficient in how it is meant to be used, you get the bonuses. BUT, if you are using a +1 flaming longsword to bash someone on the head with the pommel, then you do not get the enhancement bonuses. If you are using the shaft of a bill, you cannot brace it or get the bonuses on a disarm attempt.
There are a few reasons. The first is that this makes weapons like the bill too powerful, and steps on the toes of the reach-weapon fighter archetype (who has a specific ability letting him do this). If you can use your bill's enhancements at close range, then the negative side of it being a reach weapon is lost, even if you are doing it at -4.
The second reason is that it makes Catch Off-Guard way too good, as you have noticed. Catch Off-Guard only helps you with improvised weapons. It doesn't help you use a weapon as it is meant to. It helps you take anything and make it into a crude weapon. Notice that the improvised weapon penalty is a non-proficiency penalty, but not all non-proficiency penalties are improvised weapon penalties. That is, using a sword non-proficiently doesn't mean it is improvised. I don't think Catch-Off Guard is meant to let you use ANY weapon without penalty. It lets you use things which AREN'T weapons without penalty.
The third reason is that double weapons need to have both heads enchanted separately, so why should a longsword be any different? The blade and pommel are two different things and need to be enchanted accordingly.
I agree with you mostly excepting with the following statement:
The third reason is that double weapons need to have both heads enchanted separately, so why should a longsword be any different? The blade and pommel are two different things and need to be enchanted accordingly.
I don't think you should be able to have masterwork/enchantments on an Improvised Weapon. If you allow the pommel of a sword to be enchanted, then do you allow the shaft of the bill? What about the butt of the crossbow? What about the candlestick? Now, what about the bag of flour or the wagon wheel?
The problem is now we have to come up with enchantable segments that are clearly defined for each and every weapon.
Another problem with using Weapons as Improvised Weapons steps on the toes of certain Archetypes - like the Polearm Master's ability to switch their grip.
In fact, I'm hardline against the usage of Improvised Weapons being weapons in the first place. For what it's worth, if you've got a weapon in your hand you use it to the best of your ability. If you're not proficient with the sword you take proficiency penalties, you don't use it as an improvised weapon.
You may flavor the attack as you wish (roleplaying wise, pommel strike, etc), but mechanically its the same as if you hit with the blade.
But bashing someone with the pommel is specifically called out as improvised, isn't it? same with the flat of the blade.
And if i have a flaming longsword, it should act as whacking someone with a torch, if you hit with the flat, as the blade is on fire, but not with the pommel.
But no enhancement bonuses. the blade is enchanted. that's it, it is magic so it is a better sword, not a magically better pommel.
You take the -4 for improvised weapon, and get the appropriate damage.
Don't think you should threaten.
But bashing someone with the pommel is specifically called out as improvised, isn't it? same with the flat of the blade.
this is not the case in pathfinder (as far as i can tell)
you would threaten as well since it would be a weapon
Can you threaten with an improvised weapon? Let's say you have the catch off guard feat, would that, or anything else allow you to threaten? Not including using a actual weapon in some improvised manner. Just curious.
Why not? I'm a monk of the empty hand, and for all intents appear to be a humble butler arranging flowers. Enemy tries to go past me for the manor master, I hit him promptly with the vase with an attack of opportunity.
Similarly, you could threaten with a wash basin, or a pen. If you are the MotEH or have catch off guard, you're effectively armed so yes you'd threaten.
Other people might not realize you threaten, as implied by the 'catch off guard' name.
On the regular weapons, wouldn't hitting with the pommel or flat be the (thematically) doing non-lethal damage with a regular weapon? Similar to improvising, but not quite. You take a -4 to hit, much like improvised or non-proficient, but I don't think catch off guard negates it.
The only way I can really see 'improvising' a regular weapon would be to whack someone with a ranged weapon, like a bow. Improvised is the domain of things that are not weapons being used as weapons. Bows and crossbows fall in that category to me because they are deliver mechanisms for weapons. You can improvise tables, clocks, books, a lantern...
No character with an int above 3 can justifiably 'improvise' a dagger.
Can you threaten with an improvised weapon? Let's say you have the catch off guard feat, would that, or anything else allow you to threaten? Not including using a actual weapon in some improvised manner. Just curious.Why not? I'm a monk of the empty hand, and for all intents appear to be a humble butler arranging flowers. Enemy tries to go past me for the manor master, I hit him promptly with the vase with an attack of opportunity.
Similarly, you could threaten with a wash basin, or a pen. If you are the MotEH or have catch off guard, you're effectively armed so yes you'd threaten.
Other people might not realize you threaten, as implied by the 'catch off guard' name.
On the regular weapons, wouldn't hitting with the pommel or flat be the (thematically) doing non-lethal damage with a regular weapon? Similar to improvising, but not quite. You take a -4 to hit, much like improvised or non-proficient, but I don't think catch off guard negates it.
The only way I can really see 'improvising' a regular weapon would be to whack someone with a ranged weapon, like a bow. Improvised is the domain of things that are not weapons being used as weapons. Bows and crossbows fall in that category to me because they are deliver mechanisms for weapons. You can improvise tables, clocks, books, a lantern...
No character with an int above 3 can justifiably 'improvise' a dagger.
I could see whacking someone with the pommel being non-lethal rather than improvised and thus getting any relevant enhancement bonuses. In fact, I am convinced of that. Good call.
The other example of truly "improvised weapon"-weapons besides hitting somebody in melee with a bow/xbow/etc. would be hitting somebody adjacent to you with a reach weapon. That to me goes beyond the nonlethal usage and into improvised weapon usage, and should, I think, be penalized accordingly with no enhancements.
As for enchanting mundane items as weapons (bag of flour, wagon wheel, candlestick), I don't have a huge problem with it. If you want to spend the extra 2300 gp to get a masterwork +1 wagon wheel, then go for it.
I like my +1 flaming corrosive broken bottle.
I wonder how much fun it would be to have a +1 brilliant energy chair. But it's too expensive to find out.
I have a PFS character that will have +1 equipment items listed in the CRB to be used as improvised weapons. Unless I am told I can't do that, but it would take someone who really doesn't like fun as a concept to be able to deny it.
So far, +1 returning folding chair is my favorite idea. As soon as I can afford it...
I like the concept, but when your chair is doing more damage than a greatsword (used properly) I start having problems. Improvised weapons should pretty much always be weaker than actual weapons.*
*Solely my own interpretation of the matter
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To my understanding the only penalties that stack in regaurds to weapon use are nonproficiencies and size penalties.
Example: A halfling rogue and a medium greatsword.
Halflings are small, the sword is medium = -4
Rogues do not get Greatsword proficiency = -4
The Halfling takes a -8 total penalty to use that weapon.
A character is only penalized for the nonproficiency of said weapon. It does not matter what type of weapon it is, only that the class/race is not granting it's use.
Size penalties acrue for each difference...4 per cateogory. Though I want to see th halfling how can wield a huge greataxe.