I see that Dark_Mistress will be ecstatic.
Man I got mentioned in both threads about this product already.
Well its only fair since you are mentioned in the product itself.
Man I got mentioned in both threads about this product already.Well its only fair since you are mentioned in the product itself.
Mentioned? She's not the basis?
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Mentioned? She's not the basis?Man I got mentioned in both threads about this product already.Well its only fair since you are mentioned in the product itself.
You'd have to ask the author about how much influence DM had on the form of the product. But I understand he may be... tied up... right now.
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Hmm so this is THAT book then. Ug I don't want to wait a month to get. Maybe I can swing it early.I had assumed you'd get a comp copy, given your "featured" status within the book, but I never explicitly gave Sam the okay to send you a copy. If you don't mind, I'll get one shot off to you.
Mind if you send me a free copy? Hmm let me think about that... well ok I suppose THIS time you can give me offerings to show your worship. :)
In all seriousness though thanks.
It's not showing up for me in the Mythic Menagerie page. :(
Is there some sort of adult-content filter that I've inexplicably left enabled? Can't find any.
Paizo took it down over concerns of adult content going beyond what the license allows.It's not showing up for me in the Mythic Menagerie page. :(
Is there some sort of adult-content filter that I've inexplicably left enabled? Can't find any.
Well drat.
Paizo took it down over concerns of adult content going beyond what the license allows.It's not showing up for me in the Mythic Menagerie page. :(
Is there some sort of adult-content filter that I've inexplicably left enabled? Can't find any.
Awww. Let it be known that this is what happens when you let a succubus lead you!
This is the one time impulse-buying has actually paid off (besides the actual product) for me.
I don't get the content concerns as the product, despite the Mature Audiences warning, is quite tame for its subject matter. I'll review when it's back up, but this shouldn't have even been in question.
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Case in point, it's been removed from RPGNow also.
As I've said elsewhere, while we were aware we were on the edge of what is allowed in the compatibility license, we felt we were on the safe side of that line. (There is no specifically disallowed content we included, it's a matter of standards, which are more ephemeral.)
However, Paizo feels we went too far, and that's very much (and properly) their prerogative. Once they made that clear, it was our responsibility to stop selling the product anywhere, so we removed it from RPGNow and DriveThruRPG. And to be clear, Paizo is entirely within the letter and spirit of their license. I've praised their efforts as custodians of the OGL and Pathfinder, and this does nothing to change that praise.
Further the final product came out in the form I drove it towards. This is entirely my responsibility as developer, and neither author Sam Hing nor artist Jacob Blackmon should be considered in any way to blame for the product being judged as in violation. Both gentlemen gave me only what I asked for. If anyone is annoyed by the product not being up right now, be annoyed with me--not Sam, Jacob, or Paizo.
We will address Paizo's concerns, which is simply going to take some time, and put the product back up once we have done so.
We will address Paizo's concerns, which is simply going to take some time, and put the product back up once we have done so.
Owen, out of curiosity, was there any thought to releasing it as-is, but without the compatibility logo and language? Similar to how Fantastic Gallery released Sisters of Rapture (which is admittedly a MUCH more adult product than Demonic Harlots), for example.
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Necromancer, I'm guessing it's less about a general disapproval of the content, and more that this sort of thing is expressly forbidden in the Pathfinder Compatibility License (which they're using, since the Compatibility Logo is on the cover).
Case in point, it's been removed from RPGNow also.
You may not use this License for products that the general public would classify as "adult content," offensive, or inappropriate for minors.
The biggest problem with this is that the 'general public' is typically insane and reactionary, therefore high levels of self-censorship are mandatory. Why, oh why, does almost everything I like have to include the 13-16 age bracket? It's like the books are wearing weights...
This was a tip of the hat to DM; she has been a good friend and a great reviewer. Plus..as iconic as she is..how could I not? She got her magic sword from Purple Duck Games; now she has her own minions from us.
I would support the idea of a "unofficial" release..kind of a cool idea.
While we could have re-released the book without the compatibility logo, we'd rather avoid doing that. Instead we made changes, and it's now back up for sale here at Paizo.
Thanks to everyone for their patience. :D
The text looks the same. Was only the artwork replaced?
While we could have re-released the book without the compatibility logo, we'd rather avoid doing that. Instead we made changes, and it's now back up for sale here at Paizo.
Thanks to everyone for their patience. :D
I'll definitely be picking this up, since there's a succubus npc hanging around my group - how bowdlerized is this version though?
I am sad I did not have a chance at the Xtreme Edition.
+1
I'll definitely be picking this up, since there's a succubus npc hanging around my group - how bowdlerized is this version though?While we could have re-released the book without the compatibility logo, we'd rather avoid doing that. Instead we made changes, and it's now back up for sale here at Paizo.
Thanks to everyone for their patience. :D
I'm not downloading the censored version again, so from what I can remember the text is the same, but the art has been altered to cover any partial nudity. Amazing how scores of decapitated orc heads are allowed in an age-10-and-up book, but once a woman's nipple is visible everyone s!#~s their shorts, sets themselves aflame, and leaps from the roof.
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Funny story from this morning. We had our customs inspection on our early return container this morning, all the stuff we don't need for our mission right now, and extra personal gear. Sending it now helps reduce our workload later when we actually redeploy home.
One of the rules that customs inspectors must follow is no pornography. This gets pretty ridiculous, in that a magazine bought at the post exchange, a photography magazine, was kicked back. Why? Because it had photos of topless women. The owner was not allowed to keep the magazine unless he ripped those photos out of it.
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Funny story from this morning. We had our customs inspection on our early return container this morning, all the stuff we don't need for our mission right now, and extra personal gear. Sending it now helps reduce our workload later when we actually redeploy home.
One of the rules that customs inspectors must follow is no pornography. This gets pretty ridiculous, in that a magazine bought at the post exchange, a photography magazine, was kicked back. Why? Because it had photos of topless women. The owner was not allowed to keep the magazine unless he ripped those photos out of it.
Puritans for life.
One of the rules that customs inspectors must follow is no pornography.
I've never had enough cash to travel out of the states, so is this a customs across-the-board policy or just a military thing?
I'm not downloading the censored version again, so from what I can remember the text is the same, but the art has been altered to cover any partial nudity. Amazing how scores of decapitated orc heads are allowed in an age-10-and-up book, but once a woman's nipple is visible everyone s@$$s their shorts, sets themselves aflame, and leaps from the roof.
Thanks. Yep, that's what I suspected. Yep, violence good, sexuality bad, that's the American way isn't it? Not quite so bad this side of the pond, but I understand why Paizo have to be careful. The issues lie in society as a whole, and it wouldn't take much to bring the mob to the gates bearing flaming brands.
But yeah, shame. I'd buy the original version with or without the compatibility license.
Probably just a military thing.
I've never had enough cash to travel out of the states, so is this a customs across-the-board policy or just a military thing?
So adults, who might've seen combat time, cannot bring something they paid for back home? What a g%@@**ned senseless policy.
I'm not downloading the censored version again, so from what I can remember the text is the same, but the art has been altered to cover any partial nudity. Amazing how scores of decapitated orc heads are allowed in an age-10-and-up book, but once a woman's nipple is visible everyone s@$$s their shorts, sets themselves aflame, and leaps from the roof.Thanks. Yep, that's what I suspected. Yep, violence good, sexuality bad, that's the American way isn't it? Not quite so bad this side of the pond, but I understand why Paizo have to be careful. The issues lie in society as a whole, and it wouldn't take much to bring the mob to the gates bearing flaming brands.
But yeah, shame. I'd buy the original version with or without the compatibility license.
What bothers me the most is that these are business decisions influenced by wacky cultural standards. This trend is also spreading to other countries like a kind of cancer.
Just want to pop in and say thanks gang for getting the PDF back up. Although I think it is silly about the nudity thing, I am glad you have the 'crunch' available, since that is what I really needed. If I want nudity there is more than enough floating out there in the vast Internetz sea.
For the record, I had no real issue with the "adult" illustrations, though in the past I did talk about it in a prior product, but it was mostly regarding the age of some of the players, I think. I take a lot of meds, so I may have just made that whole memory up. Who knows?
Anyway, I downloaded the toned down version, and my only gripe about any of it is the "manga" look some of the illustrations have. I can't take a succubus seriously if she looks like she's going to throw a pokeball at me.
Great product, nonetheless. Sam Hing always delivers and I can't wait to spring some of these lovelies on my group.
I am sad I did not have a chance at the Xtreme Edition.
I now own both. Muwahahahaha!
Yeah, I'm sad that I missed the original version too...I hate censorship on principle, so I'd be happy to get it with or without the license logo simply on that basis.
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Hey folks!
We really appreciate all the support this product is getting. But let's try, in this thread at least, not to get sidetracked about what happened. The Paizo license is very clear, and they must protect their trademarks. I want them to be protecting their license. So this isn't a case of censorship (we perfectly well could have released the book without the license) or over-reactions. It's a business decision about what's too far for what is supposed to be a family-friendly mark, and we at SGG are totally satisfied Paizo acted reasonably.
No one's been unreasonable in this thread, and I don't mean to be any damper on open and polite discussion. I'm just want to address some questions I've gotten and make sure everyone knew we're still very happy with how our product is being presented.
So this isn't a case of censorship (we perfectly well could have released the book without the license)
Well, actually, it *is* censorship, although for understandable reasons. Just because you could have release it without the logo doesn't make it 'not censorship', nor does agreeing to cuts in a product willingly - censorship doesn't imply 'willing censor / unwilling producer' (although that may be the norm). It means you had to cut stuff out it to get it within acceptable boundaries. Releasing it without the logo would have made it uncensored. If one version has nudity, and another does not because of fear of causing offence / outraging decency - that's pretty much a definition of censorship. Not heavy handed, done with the intention of protecting a 'family friendly' brand, and accepted happily by yourself, but still censorship. 'We happily agreed to it being censored' would be more accurate.
The word 'censorship' carries very negative connotations (which is probably why you didn't want to say the above as it - wrongly - implies a criticism of Paizo), but it goes on around us all the time, for both valid and invalid reasons. Because it's usually self-censorship it isn't really deemed bad/wrong - I mean, I imagine Paizo censor their own products all the time based on what they consider acceptable in the marketplace, and no-one bats an eyelid - it's only where the censorship is imposed by external forces that folks are going to cry 'foul', but if you want to play in Paizo's playground then I acknowledge it's up to them to dictate the rules, the agenda, and the limits of what's acceptable. Totally within their right - I mean, I might complain, but I'm not going to be the one that any moralistic flak is going to be directed at, and nor am I going to suffer any commercial fallout if the sort of people who complained at the Book of Vile Darkness start rattling their cages again.
I would still like to have been able to decide for myself whether the sight of bare breasts would have corrupted my mind and soul (rather delicious irony considering the nature of the owners of said breasts), and therefore I would have preferred the product to be released without the compatability logo, BUT acknowledge it's a) Paizo's right to determine what is and isn't acceptable, and b) Owen's right to decide to conform the product in order to meet the requirements. I've no doubt it remains a great product.
Perhaps 'expurgated' and 'unexpurgated' would be less inflammatory?
Funny story from this morning. We had our customs inspection on our early return container this morning, all the stuff we don't need for our mission right now, and extra personal gear. Sending it now helps reduce our workload later when we actually redeploy home.
One of the rules that customs inspectors must follow is no pornography. This gets pretty ridiculous, in that a magazine bought at the post exchange, a photography magazine, was kicked back. Why? Because it had photos of topless women. The owner was not allowed to keep the magazine unless he ripped those photos out of it.
I wonder what would have happened if Nat Geo mags had been found, particularly those with images of 3rd world countries where men and women walk around practically naked as part of their everyday life. Is that material considered pornographic?
Not implying that there isn't a difference between artistic nude photography and candid photos in some sort of scientific (anthropological?) journal, but "RAW" (heh) doesn't make the distinction.
This was kinda off topic, having nothing to do with Paizo or the topic RPG supplement, but it just makes me wonder where the line is. I mean, why even look through a copy of National Geographic, or [insert photography magazine here] or Nintendo Power?
"Sir, I'm sorry, but this magazine contains a pull out poster of Zero Suit Samus, depicted with disproportional breasts. You'll have to remove it before the magazine can be cleared."[/exaggeration]
Those guys would have hated me. I have 10+ years of Nintendo Power mags where I subscribed to them as a kid. I still go back to some of them for reference when I pick up an old game.
Theneofish has it - it's censorship, even if it's not being forced maliciously. Because of that, I can't support it...really a shame, I woulda loved to get it, but only the original vision. Well, here's hoping it gets re-released sometime!
Another latecomer (...) lamenting missing out on the original.
Will purchase the original re-released sans marks, but censored is right out.