Basically, I left the magus class as is, and used only two Kensi archetype substitutions (from Ultimate Combat) to remain as “official” as I can. This is all that is really needed, however, in staying true to the bladesinger flavor, I am also proposing adding one minor and one major ability from the original 3.0-3.5 prestige class.
In summary (Bladesinger Archetype):
http://www.scribd.com/doc/63513862/Blade-Singer
1st – as kensi (diminished casting, weapon focus, canny defense, etc.)
2nd – as magus
3rd – as magus
4th – as magus
5th – as magus
6th – as magus
7th – as kensi, then replaced kensi "perfect strike" with 3.0-3.5 "lesser spellsong" ability
8th – as magus
9th – as magus
10th – as magus
11th – as magus
12th – as magus
13th - replaced magus "heavy armor" with "light armor" magus ability
14th – as magus
15th – as magus
16th - replaced magus "counterstrike" with 3.0-3.5 "song of fury" ability
17th – as magus
18th – as magus
19th – as magus
20th – as kensi (fighter weapon mastery)
I could replace 15th magus arcana forcing the archtype to take Quicken Magic as the bladesinger “song of celerity”.
What are your thoughts on this conversion? Is it balanced and true to the flavor of the original bladesinger?
To me this seemed better than trying to make a prestige class out of it.
Your Immortal DM
The idea is sound, but it is hard to analyze it in this form. I would be easier if you spelled out all of the abilities instead of referencing them externally. I don't have the time/am too lazy to go look up all the references my self and piece them together.
The idea is sound, but it is hard to analyze it in this form. I would be easier if you spelled out all of the abilities instead of referencing them externally. I don't have the time/am too lazy to go look up all the references my self and piece them together.
Ugh, seems a little tedious to explain everything from an existing base class. But if it helps:
1st – as kensi archetype (Ultimate Combat)What you get: weapon focus (as a bonus feat), and canny defense (Int bonus to AC)
What you lose: Lose casting in light armor; -1 spell slots per level
What stays the same: arcane pool, spell combat ability (cast a spell as an off-hand attack)
2nd – as magus (spellstrike ability; use touch spell as a part of a melee attack)
3rd – as magus (magus arcana; choose an ability from a list; fueled by arcane pool points)
4th – as magus (spell recall; spend arcane pool points to recall a recently cast spell)
5th – as magus (bonus combat, metamagic, or item creation feat)
6th – as magus (magus arcana; choose an ability from a list; fueled by arcane pool points)
7th – as kensi archetype (Ultimate Combat)
What you get: fighter training at level -3; “lesser spellsong” ability – take 10 on Concentration when casting defensively
What you lose: knowledge pool (spontaneous spellbook access); casting in medium armor
8th – as magus (improved spell combat = +2 on Concentration checks)
9th – as magus (magus arcana; choose an ability from a list; fueled by arcane pool points)
10th – as magus (-)
11th – as magus (bonus combat, metamagic, or item creation feat & improve spell recall - spend arcane pool points to recall a recently cast spell)
12th – as magus (magus arcana; choose an ability from a list; fueled by arcane pool points)
13th - replaced magus casting in "heavy armor" ability with casting in "light armor" magus ability
14th – as magus (greater spell combat – penalty to attack equals gives x2 bonus to Concentration checks to cast defensively)
15th – as magus (magus arcana; choose an ability from a list; fueled by arcane pool points)
16th - replaced magus "counterstrike" with 3.0-3.5 "song of fury" ability
What you get: “song of fury” +1 attack on full attack action, -2 to all attacks for 1 round
What you lose: immediate action counterstrike vs. any spellcaster who casts defensively adjacent to you
17th – as magus (bonus combat, metamagic, or item creation feat)
18th – as magus (magus arcana; choose an ability from a list; fueled by arcane pool points)
19th – as magus (greater spell access – gain 2 wizard spells / spell level to add to spellbook)
20th – as kensi archetype (Ulitmate Combat)
What you get: fighter weapon mastery
What you lose: true magus ability (+2 to DCs or +2 CL checks, automatically succeed Concentration checks to cast defensively)
Does this help to analyze the substitution?
In staying true to the flavor, I had also considered forcing them to take Magus arcana at 15th for Quicken Spell arcana (to replicate - "song of celerity"). Also, replace the class skill Use Magic Device with Acrobatics.
Your thoughts?
YIDM
It looks like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.
You can do standard Magus OR Kensai, not both. You're not being official if you're just taking the good parts of the archetype and not making all of the sacrifices.
From my view the Kensai as it is IS the Bladesinger reborn.
I’m having a hard time seeing how you might say that, so, I must disagree.
The Kensi is clearly different with its various “Iaijutsu” and quick reflex based replacements.1) On a flavor basis, it’s a completely oriental theme, not an elven one (very different there).
2) From a mechanical standpoint, other than level 1, it has no resemblance of what the original Bladesinger PrC did (in terms of game mechanics, or otherwise)
You're not being official if you're just taking the good parts of the archetype and not making all of the sacrifices.
How so? I am going level by level sticking to the core magus class with almost no substitutions. The few I do make are for equal level replacements, and excatily equal drawbacks (no more, no less). If someone where a 3rd level magus (kensi archtype) they would be *exactly* what I am proposing for bladesinger at 3rd? Zero difference (and balanced).
I would propose, that archetype substitutions are valid at each equivalent level, provided the abilities don’t build off each other, (and you take the same drawbacks) – which none of the Kensi’s do.
In a nutshell, all I really need to do is replace level 1 and level 20 with Kensi and the Bladesinger Archetype would be good with just that. The rest is just in keeping with the flavor of the original class.
What are your thoughts on replacing magus skills of Climb & Use Magic Device with more “bladesinger-esque” skills: Acrobatics & Perform? (balanced?)
I also threw in Save changes: Good Reflex & Will, poor Fortitude. Does this seem balanced? (most really bad things are Fort saves, so it seemed like a good fair trade)
Bladesinger Archetype (revised) http://www.scribd.com/doc/63589224
YIDM
PS - Bladesinger Archetype (my original) http://www.scribd.com/doc/63513862/Blade-Singer
How so? I am going level by level sticking to the core magus class with almost no substitutions. The few I do make are for equal level replacements, and excatily equal drawbacks (no more, no less). If someone where a 3rd level magus (kensi archtype) they would be *exactly* what I am proposing for bladesinger at 3rd? Zero difference (and balanced).You're not being official if you're just taking the good parts of the archetype and not making all of the sacrifices.
I think what he's saying is, you can't pick and choose which Archetype level you take. 'By-the-book', if you take an archetype, you have to take all level substitution.
Now, that being said, I'm not sure that's what you are doing. To me, it seems like you are trying to build a new archetpye by borrowing from the Kensai and adapting it. While I see some merit to this idea, personally, I think that if you are going to build an archetype for something like this, build it from scratch.
Yeah, but good luck getting most DM's to allow it. :(
I think I'll just stick with a combo of PF & 3.5 for the best bladesinger build possible:
Magus (Kensai) 7 / Bladesinger 8 / Abjurant Champion 5
And as the duelist prestige class shows, the "canny defense" and "bladesong style" (being a dodge bonus) will stack granting significant bonuses to AC (combined with a +9 shield bonus from Abjurant Champion's bonus to Abjuration spells).
YIDM
Ugh, seems a little tedious to explain everything from an existing base class. But if it helps:
That's because you're doing it wrong. :P
What he probably meant is "write it up as an archetype." That means you don't mention anything that isn't changed.
Things that are wrong with your idea (beyond cherry-picking the kensai):
Song of fury (with the extra attack) is overpowered combined with spell combat. It basically means you get two extra attacks at your highest BAB in return for -4 total to attack. Spell combat (combined with spellstrike) already IS song of fury, but turned to eleven and available right away.
And the magus already gets abilities that help him fight defensively.
What I think of bladesingers:
The magus already is *this* close to being perfect for the concept that I don't think we have to smash the class, an archetype and extra changes.
Bards don't quite fit in my opinion, because their spell choice is off.
If we need to really nail it with all class features, I'd do it like this:
Bladesinger (Magus Archetype)
Magi combine the martial with the magic. Bladesingers take it further and add performance to the mix. Originally developed by the elves, this aesthetic style has spread to other races.
Bladebond: Bladesingers have to use a light or one-handed bladed weapon (from the light blade or heavy blade fighter weapon groups) for any magus/bladesinger class ability that involves weapon attacks, like spell combat and spellstrike. Furthermore any feats gained using magus bonus feats or the fighter training ability must apply to such weapons.
Performer:Bladesingers gain Perform as a class skill
Versatile Performance: A bladesinger can get versatile performance in place of a magus arcana.
Nimble:At 7th-level, the bladesinger gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC while wearing light armour or no armour. This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels beyond 7 (to a maximum of +3 at 19th-level). This replaces medium armour and heavy armour.
There. Should perfectly capture the gist of bladesingers: They do magic and fight with swords, they do performances, they stick to light armour (but get a little bit something extra out of the deal).
They get to have an easier time casting on the defensive (all magi get that, and you can always improve on it with traits, feats and magus arcana), they get to combine spellcasting and magic (a lot earlier than 3e bladesingers), they get an extra attack with all at -2 (and you get a spell effect riding on it as well. If you get close combat, you can use acid splash, which is a cantrip, so you can do it all the time), you get to use light armour and still cast spells (again, a lot earlier than 3e bladesingers).
The part where you all do it with theatrical flair is mostly flavour. The spellsinger doesn't need a class ability to sing out verbal spell components, or to turn your swordplay into a dance. But still, I threw an option on versatile performance into the mix. It's an extra option, not terribly powerful (since you have to spend a magus arcana for it). Same goes for the added class skill, Perform. To balance that out, you only get to use most of your class abilities with a sword. Not terribly limiting, but enough to balance out one extra class skill and an extra magus arcana.
What I think of bladesingers...
That's similar to what I'd been thinking. But if I said "Great minds think alike, you'd be insulted. ;)
Hey KY, what's your email address? Can you put it here in a spoiler, or shoot me an email (under my profile page)?
What I think of bladesingers...That's similar to what I'd been thinking. But if I said "Great minds think alike, you'd be insulted. ;)
What about "Great minds sometimes have the same ideas."? Sounds less archony ;-)
And email sent.
What I think of bladesingers...That's similar to what I'd been thinking. But if I said "Great minds think alike, you'd be insulted. ;)
What about "Great minds sometimes have the same ideas."? Sounds less archony ;-)
And email sent.
Did you get the email? I haven't heard from you. Have you been busy with other stuff, or have you been busy adding it to all kinds of spam lists? ;-)
Did you get the email? I haven't heard from you. Have you been busy with other stuff, or have you been busy adding it to all kinds of spam lists? ;-)What about "Great minds sometimes have the same ideas."? Sounds less archony ;-)
And email sent.
Oops, sorry, too many distractions lately. My apologies. Email reply sent.
Oops, sorry, too many distractions lately. My apologies. Email reply sent.Did you get the email? I haven't heard from you. Have you been busy with other stuff, or have you been busy adding it to all kinds of spam lists? ;-)What about "Great minds sometimes have the same ideas."? Sounds less archony ;-)
And email sent.
Read it and replied. I must say, I did blush.
(To make a comment out of context that can be taken the wrong way ;-))
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Personally, I think the Dervish Dancer archetype for the bard from Ultimate Combat is way more appropriate for a Bladesinger than any Magus archetype would be.My feel too
I have to check the spells again, but I think dervish dancer is one of the best attempts to make the d8 HD classes into a playable and effective frontline fighting class from an offensive standpoint.
It's either bladebound magus or dervish dancer now. I don't think another class can work better.