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Voices of the Spheres
At 2nd level, an empyreal knight learns to speak and read Celestial, if she could not already.
This ability replaces divine grace.
my question is, since it says IF, if said character is able to read and speak celestial, do they keep divine grace?
You must take all substitutions for an archetype. The first and second sentences are separate. Even if the ability has no effect, it still replaces Divine Grace.
I changed the thread title since "Question for Paizo" is kind of generic.
Steelfiredragon wrote: Voices of the Spheres
At 2nd level, an empyreal knight learns to speak and read Celestial, if she could not already.
This ability replaces divine grace.
my question is, since it says IF, if said character is able to read and speak celestial, do they keep divine grace?
The archetype requires the sacrifice, no matter how linguistically enabled you are.
Steelfiredragon wrote: Voices of the Spheres
At 2nd level, an empyreal knight learns to speak and read Celestial, if she could not already.
This ability replaces divine grace.
my question is, since it says IF, if said character is able to read and speak celestial, do they keep divine grace?
If it read "This ability replaces divine grace if she could not already", then it would let you keep divine grace. But that would mean that the only way it made any sense to play an Empyreal knight would be to put a skill point into Linguistics at first level to gain Celestial, because of how good divine grace is.
Instead, it just does nothing if you already speak celestial.
Bobson wrote: Steelfiredragon wrote: Voices of the Spheres
At 2nd level, an empyreal knight learns to speak and read Celestial, if she could not already.
This ability replaces divine grace.
my question is, since it says IF, if said character is able to read and speak celestial, do they keep divine grace?
If it ready "This ability replaces divine grace if she could not already", then it would let you keep divine grace. But that would mean that the only way it made any sense to play an Empyreal knight would be to put a skill point into Linguistics at first level to gain Celestial, because of how good divine grace is.
Instead, it just does nothing if you already speak celestial. This. Also, if it makes you feel better, you're the only martial class guaranteed a flying mount.
Serisan wrote: Also, if it makes you feel better, you're the only martial class guaranteed a flying mount. That should make ANYONE feel better!
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That is one of the worst tradeoffs for an archetype ever. We'll give you Celestial and take away Divine Grace. It doesn't matter if the rest of the archetype is totally over the top, I'm never going to take it. Flying mounts and such are back loaded and losing divine grace may well prevent you from getting there.
I do agree it is the worst trade off, even though it may even off if you take pure faith, since the feat grants +4 divine poison( requires divine health which we still have) and celestial heart grants a racial +4 against poison.
I wonder if it would be possible to erratta it to have the voice of the sphere to take the palce of the feat granted at lvl 3 instead?
Mr. James Jacobs is it possible to see it errattad or do we keep it if we already speak and read celestial.
Serisan wrote: Bobson wrote: Steelfiredragon wrote: Voices of the Spheres
At 2nd level, an empyreal knight learns to speak and read Celestial, if she could not already.
This ability replaces divine grace.
my question is, since it says IF, if said character is able to read and speak celestial, do they keep divine grace?
If it ready "This ability replaces divine grace if she could not already", then it would let you keep divine grace. But that would mean that the only way it made any sense to play an Empyreal knight would be to put a skill point into Linguistics at first level to gain Celestial, because of how good divine grace is.
Instead, it just does nothing if you already speak celestial. This. Also, if it makes you feel better, you're the only martial class guaranteed a flying mount. which is pointless at lvl 20 since you can fly yourself at tthat point
Steelfiredragon wrote: I do agree it is the worst trade off, even though it may even off if you take pure faith, since the feat grants +4 divine poison( requires divine health which we still have) and celestial heart grants a racial +4 against poison.
I wonder if it would be possible to erratta it to have the voice of the sphere to take the palce of the feat granted at lvl 3 instead?
Mr. James Jacobs is it possible to see it errattad or do we keep it if we already speak and read celestial.
The feat at 3rd level isn't a paladin class feature, so it can't be replaced by an archetype.
This is by no means the only archetype in which you lose power in something to gain more/different power later, but it's probably the most extreme example. On the other hand, starting at 3rd level you start getting resistances, immunities, and other powerful stuff, and paladins have two good saves, so it's not like you're defenseless, you just don't have the bonus. I think that overall, it's a pretty powerful template, although it drastically changes how the paladin plays.
Starglim wrote: You must take all substitutions for an archetype. The first and second sentences are separate. Even if the ability has no effect, it still replaces Divine Grace. That isn't necessarily correct. Take a look at the Qingong monk archetype. It has a number of optional/conditional class features that do not necessarily have to be taken.
That said, the grammar of the Voices of the Spheres ability makes it abundantly clear that the "if" is qualifying the "she could not already" part of the first sentence and does not apply at all to the second sentence: "This ability replaces divine grace."
Archetypes aren't balanced by what each ability replaces.
They are balanced as a whole.
Cheapy wrote: Archetypes aren't balanced by what each ability replaces.
They are balanced as a whole.
Or unbalanced as a whole, as is the case with several of the UC archetypes.
Steelfiredragon wrote: Serisan wrote: Bobson wrote: Steelfiredragon wrote: Voices of the Spheres
At 2nd level, an empyreal knight learns to speak and read Celestial, if she could not already.
This ability replaces divine grace.
my question is, since it says IF, if said character is able to read and speak celestial, do they keep divine grace?
If it ready "This ability replaces divine grace if she could not already", then it would let you keep divine grace. But that would mean that the only way it made any sense to play an Empyreal knight would be to put a skill point into Linguistics at first level to gain Celestial, because of how good divine grace is.
Instead, it just does nothing if you already speak celestial. This. Also, if it makes you feel better, you're the only martial class guaranteed a flying mount. which is pointless at lvl 20 since you can fly yourself at tthat point The flying mount gives you better speeds, and is required if you're going to do the aerial lance attacks thingy.
Actually I think this archetype is perfect as it is. If it did not have such a weighty tradeoff, it'd become the de facto archetype to take. What you get out of this archetype you shouldn't unless you're looking to prove how bad you really want it.
Cheapy wrote: Archetypes aren't balanced You got that right! :D
TriOmegaZero wrote: Cheapy wrote: Archetypes aren't balanced You got that right! :D They're not absolutely balanced, that's pretty much impossible. I do think however that they are reasonably balanced, just not balanced enough for power gaming styles.
LazarX wrote: TriOmegaZero wrote: Cheapy wrote: Archetypes aren't balanced You got that right! :D They're not absolutely balanced, that's pretty much impossible. I do think however that they are reasonably balanced, just not balanced enough for power gaming styles. Is this the part where we start laughing and don't stop?
LazarX wrote: They're not absolutely balanced, that's pretty much impossible. I do think however that they are reasonably balanced, just not balanced enough for power gaming styles. All archetypes are balanced, but some archetypes are more balanced than others.
Umbral Reaver wrote: LazarX wrote: TriOmegaZero wrote: Cheapy wrote: Archetypes aren't balanced You got that right! :D They're not absolutely balanced, that's pretty much impossible. I do think however that they are reasonably balanced, just not balanced enough for power gaming styles. Is this the part where we start laughing and don't stop? PLEASE DO.
A Man In Black wrote: LazarX wrote: They're not absolutely balanced, that's pretty much impossible. I do think however that they are reasonably balanced, just not balanced enough for power gaming styles. All archetypes are balanced, but some archetypes are more balanced than others. Two legs good, four legs bad.
(I'm not sure how the two threads relate, but AMIB's quote was too perfect to not follow up).
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