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so, a human monk with master of many styles can take Earth Child Style, by ignoring the prerequisites.
Since the feat doesn't say "you get a +2 to your defensive training vs. giants" , and instead says "your defensive training vs. giants increases to +6" , would a human get any benefit from this since they naturally have no defensive training vs. giants?
or would they suddenly get +6 when using this feat , in addition to their wisdom bonus on damage vs. giants?
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no, defensive training is +4 dodge bonus vs. giants for both gnomes and dwarves. how is it different for races that have it ?
it looks like a monk taking this would get either a +6 or a +2 dodge bonus vs. giants, and wis vs. giants on damage. i'm just trying to figure out which is intended RAW, since some monks can take this without meeting the dwarven or gnomish prerequisite.
are you a developer? or just another pleeb like me ? if so, i'll just mark it for faq or wait for someone else to weigh in on it. i've heard your opinion.
Developers have stated in the past, on other topics such as Sneak Attack, that abilities that add to an existing skill do not give that skill to characters who do not already have it.
They have stated that NOT having a skill/ability is not the same as having that skill/ability at value 0.
Example: It is clearly stated that humans have a natural armor value of +0, so items that add to their natural armor DO work.
Example: A fighter has NO sneak attack. This does not mean he has sneak attack +0 he has a sneak attack of -. So things that would ADD to sneak attack do not help him. Things that GRANT sneak attack would.
So you cannot increase their ability if they do not have it to start with.
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an ability like sneak attack is different than a combat style feat. the devs made a sticky wicket and didn't consider that anyone besides a dwarf or a gnome would be able to bypass the prerequisites and take the feat.
either the human gets a +2 defensive training vs. giants, or he gets the full +6. the feat is worded badly because it automatically presumes that because you've taken the feat, you have a defensive training ability at all.
All the other feats that boost a racial trait ability by +2 are just a horrible waste of feats imho.
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I would think it would give some bonus for a non-gnome/non-dwarf, considering its called out in the example for master of many forms archtype.
i think it just needs clarification/rewording. considering they didn't pay much attention to the monk section of ultimate combat ( neglecting to fix the Tetori's feat list / including those feats in the feats section ), its real easy to see how they would have neglected what bonus a human master of many forms should gain when taking earth child topple style feats.
yes
No.
Actually, no. As Gilfalas explained, a Human doesn't have a defensive training ability, and therefore can't have it boosted. It's not just a +0, it doesn't exist.
Lets say there's an ability or feat which allows arcane spell casters to add a +1d6 to their fireball damage, and some loophole or archtype allowed you to take it without any prerequisites. Would you expect a barbarian or cleric with that feat to be able to cast a 1d6 fireball now? Of course not. It's the same thing.
Lets say there's an ability or feat which grants you +2 damage when using a dagger. Should you be able to deal 2 pts of damage when unarmed and not holding a dagger? No. Because the damage boost only works when you have a dagger. Again, it's the same thing as the defensive training. You don't have it, therefore it can't be boosted.
You asked a question and got an answer you didn't want. If you don't like the answer, have a house rule for your own games. But don't be a jerk just because people aren't telling you what you want to hear.
yes
No.
No.
For the reasons the others have pointed out. a value of 0 is different then not having a value.
This is why the Devs made sure to point out that things with no natural armor count as having 0.
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i'm not arguing that it should add +1d6 to a nonexistant fireball.
i'm saying the feat was written concurrently with an archtype that bypasses feat prerequisites for style feats, and earth child topple was called out in the example listed in the archtype.
all of the racial ability feats are written to carefully say your +2 bonus becomes a +4 bonus, not your bonus increases by +2.
I'm saying earth child topple was worded badly, and should grant non-dwarves the full benefit of the feat: gaining or increasing defensive training vs. giants, as well as dealing wisdom when damaging giants. if they have defensive training it should increase from +4 to +6. if they don't it should grant them defensive training, from studying with dwarves/gnomes and others about how to defend themselves from giants, of +2 (not +6).
All of ultimate combat is f!!~ed up. the weapons are hard to read. monk weapons got shafted/forgotten. an archtype for monks didn't get its feats included in the feat section and is dead weight in the book since its included but can't be used for organized play / play without heavy GM aducation. I'm saying they messed up this too. ALL of the other abilities of the feat chain are not dependent on race. this is the only one. by doing that they weren't thinking properly.
Just checked the FAQs and didn't see this answered yet. I would like to know if this is +0, +2, or +6 vs. Giants officially (Muzzy,above, did make an excellent point though).
so, a human monk with master of many styles can take Earth Child Style, by ignoring the prerequisites.
Since the feat doesn't say "you get a +2 to your defensive training vs. giants" , and instead says "your defensive training vs. giants increases to +6" , would a human get any benefit from this since they naturally have no defensive training vs. giants?
or would they suddenly get +6 when using this feat , in addition to their wisdom bonus on damage vs. giants?
Sorry, but you can't increase something you never had. You do gain the other benefits of the feat, such as the wisdom bonus to unarmed damage.