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Ok, so the FAQ says about trip weapons, that it uses the enhancement bonus and stuff like Weapon Focus, but does not mention weapon finesse.
Would you apply your Dex instead of Strength if you made a trip attempt with a sickle for example (simple light weapon)?
The next one is Disarm:
Here the logic is the other way. Disarm gives a penalty of -4 when done unarmed, which strongly implies that the normal disarm manouver is done with your weapon. Which also makes sense when you think about it.
The disarm weapon, unlike trip, does not allow you to perform a disarm with a weapon in the first place, it simply makes you better at it and gives you a flat +2 bonus.
So, would a normal weapon (without disarm property) apply its enhancement bonus, weapon focus,etc to the CMB roll, and would even let you switch Dex for Str just like when doing a trip?
I know there's the Agile Manouver feat, but since that applies to all CM not just the ones done with a weapon (so also Bull Rush, Grapple etc), it does not by itself rule out the possibility that Weapon Finesse can be used.
I stand corrected...
Weapon Finesse (9/25/09)
Q: Since disarm, sunder, and trip are attack actions (not standard maneuvers like bull rush, overrun, or grapple), does the Weapon Finesse feat allow the fighter to add his Dex to his CMB for those specific attacks? Or would I need Agile Maneuvers no matter what maneuver I wanted?A: (James Jacobs) Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and similar feats would only apply when you're attempting a combat maneuver with that weapon. For the most part, this would be limited to things like disarm or sunder or MAYBE trip. You wouldn't get this bonus to things like overrun, bull rush, or grapple that don't use a weapon attack as part of their requirements. Agile Maneuvers applies to EVERY maneuver every time.
Yes, Finesse applies to attacks made with qualifying weapons, Maneuvers are still attacks.
Enhancement bonuses also apply to all attacks made with the weapon they are applied to.
(EDIT: Though the Trip FAQ changes this, unless it is explictly changed for a given situation, the general rule applies)
@Stynkk: Read James Jacobs´ posts on the topic re: Disarm and Trip, it may be in the official FAQ or on d20pfsrd as well. Weapon Finesse can´t apply to certain maneuvers not done with Weapons, namely Grapple and non-Shield Slam/Knockback Bullrush, Over-Run, etc. Or just read Weapon Finesse, which discusses ATTACK ROLLS, a term which applies directly to Maneuvers as well as ´normal´ attacks:
Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
...The exact definition of what maneuvers are done with weapons isn´t stated very clearly in the rules itself, but basically the assumption seems to be that ´in place of melee attack´ maneuvers are done with weapons.
...The exact definition of what maneuvers are done with weapons isn´t stated very clearly in the rules itself, but basically the assumption seems to be that ´in place of melee attack´ maneuvers are done with weapons.
Thanks Quandary, join me in my new thread, won't you.. very interesting stuff.
Argh... I´d love to, but I´ve knocked that subject about WAAY too much, without any effect.
Basically, as I see it, ´in place of melee attack´ indicates that maneuvers are done via a weapon (if for the sole reason that if you substitute a Reach Polearm attack with a Maneuver, the weapon MUST be delivering that maneuver), but the rules don´t actually say that Maneuvers that DON´T say that CAN´T be delivered via Weapons... e.g. using a Shield to Bull-Rush WITHOUT using Shield Slam to give a free Bullrush. Obviously, only idiots would claim that a Greatsword could be used to Grapple somebody, but other cases aren´t so clear cut.
Obviously, only idiots would claim that a Greatsword could be used to Grapple somebody, but other cases aren´t so clear cut.
You could put two hands on opposite sides of the sword (imagine if your arms were straight out, hands shoulder width apart and the sword was lying in your hands horizontally) and use it to increase your "grappling area" and pin someone to you by pulling the sword to your chest. A tad dangerous, but possible.
I guess you wouldn't happen to have a link to that thread of James Jacobs, would you? :)
Yes, you could use a greatsword in that manner, but its not using the greatsword as a greatsword anymore then, its just a big lever. So weapon focus, enhancement and all that wouldn't go into the grapple.
OK, that´s not idiotic, but obviously stretching it more.
It does also bring up the same issue vis-a-vis the Trip clarification:
If Bullrushing somebody with a weapon not explicitly designed for it, would/should you gain weapon bonuses?
If not, the only reason to use a weapon would be if you can use it´s Reach, i.e. a Longspear Bullrush.
But whether or not that´s even possible is unknown...
I would lean towards the idea that since the rules don´t discuss it (but do ex/implictly allow specific maneuvers to be delivered via weapons), they are assuming that the maneuvers in question CAN´T be done via weapon, but that itself is reading into the rules.
I guess you wouldn't happen to have a link to that thread of James Jacobs, would you? :)
Yes, you could use a greatsword in that manner, but its not using the greatsword as a greatsword anymore then, its just a big lever. So weapon focus, enhancement and all that wouldn't go into the grapple.
Well you've got to turn that sucker sideways and slice em up a bit while you grapple.
Heres your link: James on Weapon Finesse
Awesome, thanks