I do like that, when characters have professions, do something other than the adventuring norm, contribute to a community, even build one from the ground up (e.g. Greenbelt). This is participation in the gaming world, role-playing their character, being good at something other than just fighting or raiding or spellcasting. Diplomacy in down-time is another good one, get to know all the important folks, get them working together, coordinated.
Time spent magic item crafting takes away from all of this. I've seen others get a lot done over the days in game, while the crafter locks themselves away making some new item for another body slot. Magic item crafting does not further the character, it is used to beef stats (moar headbands of intellect please) or fill out what they didn't quite grab in the last delving. It is greedy, it is mechanical, it ignores other things that could be done. And then as they spend all their wealth making a small hoard of items, and emerge kitted up, they will still claim to be good character with the interests of others at heart. Magic item crafting leads so often to selfishness and isolation from the world dms try to create. The crafting chronicles. Sigh.
If they took a non magical form of crafting, say weapons, armour, wood carving, they could use it easily for others, for a wider settlement, contribute to the settlements main crafts. Magic item crafting is for self first, party second, profit third and damn the rest! A weird sort of elitism that drains other useful actions, but gets you customised items.
The selfishness has nothing to do with crafting. That is a player issue. The few times people crafted in my games they did stuck for everyone.
Even if I am not crafting I won't waste skill points on profession X, as an example.What actions does it drain?
"I know that, if I was playing a crafting based character, and my GM told me that I wouldn't be able to go on adventures, and would fall behind the other characters in XP, something completely contrary to the rules, as illustrated in the earlier link, I'd be rather annoyed with the wasted character concept and feats taken."
If you were playing a magic item crafting based character, you should not be playing a game of excitement and adventure, because those types of characters may be, the most boring characters of all. What do they do? Well they have put their feats and specialties to making magic stuff. So why are they adventuring apart from getting more loot to turn into more magic items? Why don't they just set up a shop, never leave a settlement and give discounts to the other active players to make their stuff for them.
I tell you, some of the doors opened by certain feats and directions, make the game duller. I've had other players complain about crafters and hagglers and magic item shoppers. The time wasted, so they can get or make a new item. Their utter selfishness and meta-gaming at times (I want to find this item! I want to make this item I have never encountered before!) drags me, not into anger, but into such a pit of loathing and sadness at what one crafting (or shopping focused character) can do to a game.
I haven't done this yet, but I have been really tempted to put a little change in place. If someone spends so much time shopping, or crafting, they don't level up next in a heroic class, no, they level up in expert (craftsman) or expert (shopper). If they have been putting a lot of time to this, if this is their major contribution in multiple games, they shouldn't be levelling in wizard, or rogue or cleric. No, they should be levelling in their chosen specialisation. And a wizard who focuses on crafting, not getting out their and testing his spellcasting, should be a craftsman, become an npc and be out of the party. I've seen some serious stuff-shoppers and crafters, that veer far away...
I don't agree with your opinion. One can't open up a shop and stop adventuring because crafting is not profitable by the rules. The only way to make money as a PC is to adventure. The crafting rules allow you to get the magical gear you need. They go hand in hand to me.
One thing I've been wondering. If the wizard stayed behind to craft magic items, and the rest of the party went adventuring, how well does the party do without their arcane caster? Do they suffer more casualties?
I also wonder about the quality of the treasure the party receives. If the wizard stopped to craft a headband to boost his Intelligence, would the PCs naturally get loot just as useful? And how do the PCs dispose of undesirable loot?
I definitely will need to read the houserules for this campaign.
Damn straight Lazarx. It is a lot of work, and powerful items should not just be able to be done on the road, but we are probably viewing it from a more 3.0 ed perspective.
To Lath, that is one thing that does come up. So the highly active and driven non-crafting characters can set off ahead, get xp find a range of different loot, meet new npcs etc etc. Now what they get will be dependent on the type of game they are hunting, if it is thieves guilds, well it'll be loot and a few tricky items, if they are robbing mages different sort of stuff.
And the crafter sits back, and makes items perfect for what they need, exactly what they need even. It just strikes me as really wrong. For the others it is variable, for the crafter, the selfish crafter, it is whatever they want, dependent on the feats they took. It is like sacrificing feats to get specific magic items when you meet the pre-reqs. Just get out and adventure already! Is my opinion.
On the document, a bit of progress, I could simplify what is in place.
Damn straight Lazarx. It is a lot of work, and powerful items should not just be able to be done on the road, but we are probably viewing it from a more 3.0 ed perspective.
To Lath, that is one thing that does come up. So the highly active and driven non-crafting characters can set off ahead, get xp find a range of different loot, meet new npcs etc etc. Now what they get will be dependent on the type of game they are hunting, if it is thieves guilds, well it'll be loot and a few tricky items, if they are robbing mages different sort of stuff.
And the crafter sits back, and makes items perfect for what they need, exactly what they need even. It just strikes me as really wrong. For the others it is variable, for the crafter, the selfish crafter, it is whatever they want, dependent on the feats they took. It is like sacrificing feats to get specific magic items when you meet the pre-reqs. Just get out and adventure already! Is my opinion.
On the document, a bit of progress, I could simplify what is in place.
Do your crafters never make items for other party members?
Also, is the treasure your group receives all random, or is it tailored to the group?
If you were playing a magic item crafting based character, you should not be playing a game of excitement and adventure, because those types of characters may be, the most boring characters of all. What do they do? Well they have put their feats and specialties to making magic stuff. So why are they adventuring apart from getting more loot to turn into more magic items? Why don't they just set up a shop, never leave a settlement and give discounts to the other active players to make their stuff for them.
It doesn't take "All their feats and specialties" to be an effective caster. With the exception of the item crafting feats themselves (which the crafter gets to pick-and-choose), every other ability required to craft magical items is multi-purpose.
Spellcraft? That's not useful in a dungeon?
Metamagic Feats? Those aren't useful?
Spells like Fireball, Bulls Strength, or Shield? Those aren't useful?
Why don't they set up a shop? Because they don't want to? Because it doesn't interest them? Because they don't have a head for business? Because item crafting is a HOBBY for the character? Might as well tell a fighter who practices his sword-kata-forms every night that he needs to retire, and open up a training academy.
Again, I'm talking about a character putting in 4 hours of effort, in the evening, around the campfire, to puttering around with magical energies, trying to figure out how to build a better mousetrap. This is, in common terms, called a hobby. The crafting-character can be doing this, while the Fighter sharpens his sword, the bard practices his instrument, the rogue plays hide-and-seek pranks on the Paladin, and so on.
According to the rules, a crafting character can, while adventuring, spend four hours a day doing crafting without impacting the ability of the party to adventure.
I tell you, some of the doors opened by certain feats and directions, make the game duller. I've had other players complain about crafters and hagglers and magic item shoppers. The time wasted, so they can get or make a new item. Their utter selfishness and meta-gaming at times (I want to find this item! I want to make this item I have never encountered before!) drags me, not into anger, but into such a pit of loathing and sadness at what one crafting (or shopping focused character) can do to a game.
The dullness of those abilities are your opinion. There are plenty of players out there who, apart from any desire to metagame, think the idea of having an artificer is awesome. Again, there's no need to waste any time, if (a)the player does their planning in advance, and spends 5 minutes clearing plans with the GM prior to the game (in which case, it's no different than a player discussing the prestige class they're interested in), and (b) the character uses the down-time rules to avoid bogging down the party.
Regarding selfishness: What crafting-based character worth his salt isn't going to work for the good of the party as a whole? Why wouldn't he use his abilities to help equip those who protect him? Wizards (who are the most likely crafters, based on feats and abilities) know full well that they're squishy, and like having meat-shields around to keep them safe.
Regarding meta-gaming: I've never seen Excalibur, but even before gaming, I was able to easily imagine a number of cool properties for magical swords. It's called imagination and creativity, and crafting-style characters have it. Also consider that the character may have heard of legendary figures of the past (kind of like how I just referenced King Arthur), and extrapolate ideas from that.
I haven't done this yet, but I have been really tempted to put a little change in place. If someone spends so much time shopping, or crafting, they don't level up next in a heroic class, no, they level up in expert (craftsman) or expert (shopper). If they have been putting a lot of time to this, if this is their major contribution in multiple games, they shouldn't be levelling in wizard, or rogue or cleric. No, they should be levelling in their chosen specialisation. And a wizard who focuses on crafting, not getting out their and testing his spellcasting, should be a craftsman, become an npc and be out of the party. I've seen some serious stuff-shoppers and crafters, that veer far away...
Just add to your list of houserules that item crafting (other than perhaps scrolls) is banned from your games. Don't trap a player into thinking it's going to be an option, and then punish them for making a "badwrongfun" choice. It's your gaming table, and I'm not telling you how to run your game. What I AM telling you is how the existing rules work.
If a GM told me that I HAD to take a specific class for my next level, much less that it would be a non-heroic class, they'd find themselves without a player real quickly. It's not the GM's place to dictate what the character is - that's the player's job.
It's not "contrary to the rules" because the rules don't specify what kind of surroundings or environment is needed for magical item crafting. As far as crafting taking you away from adventuring you've apparently forgotten the gold old days when it cost you experience as well.
I never even considered crafting in the old days, because it was completely counter-intuitive to me that performing a task would make you less experienced.
Regarding my "Contrary to the Rules" comment:
- If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work.
- Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).
The rules allow crafting in "a distracting or dangerous environment" and specifically recognize adventuring as such a condition. Hence my conclusion that 3.5L's comments are contrary to the rules of Pathfinder.
Isn't it a bit ridiculous, that one can make powerful magic items casually over a few hours each day? Are these great items worthy of song which last through the ages and go through new hoards over time, or are they whittled bits of wood done at the campfire when you are bored?
Forget the rules in this instance, because magic item crafting has changed over the editions, and been made easier, more available, more casual. Does it make much sense? Shouldn't they require what lazarx was talking about? Serious resources, rooted to the spot crafting areas (good luck taking the forge, your texts, your magic item imbuing tools all with you), highest quality ingredients. Basically, part of a lair kitted out for the purpose, not just a bedroll, some ingredients, the mw item and that's it.
If they are casual in their magic item making, then I'd expect the goods to be of low quality and not keep their charge for long. You can't forge a great armour of the ages just loading around a few hours a day on it.
Crafing in a dangerous environment? What if the imbuing process is disrupted eh? What if you have to get up and go fight something, or stop and do something else. This doesn't make sense. If you don't do it right and with complete attention, without distractions, it shouldn't be properly done.
Against the rules. Well sometimes, the rules make no sense at all.
Which brings us to some of the big changes of pathfinder. What used to be difficult has been made easier, what once required a lot of effort and investment now can just be done without hindrance. They are so careful not to offend players, to make buffing and filling the item slots so very easy.
So crafting, well you don't need areas set up for that purpose, no now you can do that in the wild, on the road, while you are cooking your bacon.
Xp cost? Naa, we got rid of that too. So its easier, and there is no cost other than wealth, which is required to make the items. Cost in crafting facilities, a wizards tower or a site to imbue items with holy power, no that isn't required now.
Like I said, feats + wealth = whatever magic items you can make, with a huge selection for each crafting type feat. And magic items are meant to be special. Making bread requires more facilities.
Which brings us to some of the big changes of pathfinder. What used to be difficult has been made easier, what once required a lot of effort and investment now can just be done without hindrance. They are so careful not to offend players, to make buffing and filling the item slots so very easy.
So crafting, well you don't need areas set up for that purpose, no now you can do that in the wild, on the road, while you are cooking your bacon.
Or, you know, now you can actually use your feat investment.
Xp cost? Naa, we got rid of that too. So its easier, and there is no cost other than wealth, which is required to make the items. Cost in crafting facilities, a wizards tower or a site to imbue items with holy power, no that isn't required now.
Did you ever play or GM for a crafter in 3.5? You get more powerful through ideal equipment, but you lag behind the party in XP. This creates a nightmare for the CR system, and for what? Saving a bunch of gold for the whole party?
XP should be XP. It shouldn't be a form of currency. You make the GM's life harder when you make XP a variable like that.
If they are casual in their magic item making, then I'd expect the goods to be of low quality and not keep their charge for long. You can't forge a great armour of the ages just loading around a few hours a day on it.
So, if they're serious about item crafting, then they're ruining the game and need to be forced to take levels in expert and lose XP.
If they're casual about item crafting, then they're items are of low quality and should only last a few days.
I'm very glad that I've learned to steer clear of GM's like you, who essentially decide in exactly what way players need to have fun, and do everything possible to punish any attempt to have fun in any other way.
I haven't forced anyone into the expert class, but if someone spent more time trading, then fighting, and they said they were a swashbuckler, I would be a little incredulous. Same with crafting.
You can get angry at me if you want Avalon, but this side of dnd isn't its best side. I've never seen a crafter (and I've had to see two of them in recent years) actually have fun with crafting. They do it, they are satisfied, satisfied being the perfect word, but this isn't fun, this is accounting and filling item slots. It's blandness means fun is still a long way off, this isn't having a great combat, pulling through a dungeon, saving a player or npc from doom, having a good laugh or making a great joke at the table, don't confuse stuff-crafting with fun. It isn't. It is the greedy scratching their needs.
I for one am much happier at not using XP at all. Saves quite a lot of bookkeeping.
Agreed. The only reason to use XP is if you want character advancement to be dependent on which enemies or other activities the players choose to face and when, using XP to reward/penalize behaviors.
I have been much happier planning level-ups to occur at certain defined points in the adventure.
<SNIP>
but this isn't fun,
Everything else you said was justification -- THIS is your problem.
Your need to decide what's "fun" for everyone else, and then enforce your rulings by changing the rules so no one else can have fun where they're not supposed to, is controlling and inappropriate.
I'm sure it works in your setting, with your player base. At our tables that attitude would subtlely push you off the GM list.
Actually Lathiira, there was a character who was making items for himself and two other players. You could say he was contributing to the party in a sense.....? The cavalier was not impressed while the three of them started discussing what items they wanted. It was an extremely not heroic scene.
It was very sad. It went on for something like an hour. DnD is about villains and heroes. The process of how the party eventually moves to being heroes or villains through their actions. If the hour was spent on killing evil, rescuing damsels in distress or good role-playing, it wouldn't have been a problem. The problem was, that it became Pathfinder: The accounting chronicles.
I can see where 3.5L is coming from and where he is pushing the game towards. Besides, it would be extremely weird to hear a tale being spun about a famous swordsman or knight who had to constantly upgrade his equipment with magic, therefore relying more on the arcane buffs than their actual mastery of swordsmanship.
Actually Lathiira, there was a character who was making items for himself and two other players. You could say he was contributing to the party in a sense.....? The cavalier was not impressed while the three of them started discussing what items they wanted. It was an extremely not heroic scene.
It was very sad. It went on for something like an hour. DnD is about villains and heroes. The process of how the party eventually moves to being heroes or villains through their actions. If the hour was spent on killing evil, rescuing damsels in distress or good role-playing, it wouldn't have been a problem. The problem was, that it became Pathfinder: The accounting chronicles.
I can see where 3.5L is coming from and where he is pushing the game towards. Besides, it would be extremely weird to hear a tale being spun about a famous swordsman or knight who had to constantly upgrade his equipment with magic, therefore relying more on the arcane buffs than their actual mastery of swordsmanship.
I can relate with the idea of the good story, so from that perspective, I am with 3.5 L all the way. On the other hand, if I choose to make a character who is a craftsman of magic, I want to know it's gong to be viable and not a waste of feats. Also, from my own experience, I create magic items for myself and my party...and then get to have fun trying them out and seeing if they work.
There are also plenty of stories where crafting is important. The party finds they can't beat the villain, their powers are too weak. They then go and quest to improve themselves, right? Well, sometimes they improve themselves by getting better armaments. And not every king has an armory that is conveniently stocked with just the right stuff to fight off that horde from the Underdark, nor does every dungeon have exactly the right numbers of goggles of night, periapts against poison, and wands of heightened daylight.
Get into the dungeons, the evil temple, the courts, the battlefield, the bar, and keep right away from the crafting.
There is no heroism at all in crafting, in winning the items without real effort or striving.
Xp cost or no, whatever you run, this type of blandness takes time. If you avalon think I wouldn't make a great dm, that's cool, but a dm should be taking games away from monotony, sometimes taking some things away from players if they waste others' time. You shouldn't be a dick (rule no. 1) but if players are taking up real time as they craft and excessively shop, those others who don't take this path shouldn't have to sit there and feel their love of the game fade away.
Bloody crafters and shoppers!
But what of those who enjoy crafting and shopping?
a dm should be taking games away from monotony, sometimes taking some things away from players if they waste others' time.
... and apparently if they find a way to do it WITHOUT wasting others' time (crafting while adventuring), you should take it away from them ANYWAY because... why, exactly? Because you don't like players having fun the wrong way?
Once you've decided that crafting needs to be punished whether it takes time or not, you can no longer use time-wasting as your excuse.
Again, I work hard to make sure that my players can have fun exploring whichever aspects of the mechanics and setting of the game they choose, and we have fun. I'm sorry that your players don't have the same opportunities, because certain ways of playing or certain options "feel wrong" to the GM.
But what of those who enjoy crafting and shopping?
Obviously they're not "really" having fun -- and if they are, it's only at the expense of other players who are having fun the "right" way.
Like I said, I'm glad I got away from GM's trying to tell me what methods of having fun were and weren't permissible in our games.
Recettear. It's a game about shopping, selling and haggling. It is quite likeable and very cute, but dnd should not go in this direction, we will lose a lot in the item slot and item fixation.
Recettear actually has a small part of adventuring, but everything is about the bottom line, getting more money, more items, more to sell on. Dnd won't move ahead as an rpg if this is the dead end of greed it backs into.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recettear:_An_Item_Shop%27s_Tale
Shopping and crafting also involve a great deal of meta-gaming as well. Suddenly the crafter knows what is required, because the player did the research, they know exactly how to pull it off and how long it will take. Where did they learn this? How do they know what is exactly required to get what they haven't yet made?
Isn't it a bit ridiculous, that one can make powerful magic items casually over a few hours each day? Are these great items worthy of song which last through the ages and go through new hoards over time, or are they whittled bits of wood done at the campfire when you are bored?
Consider that, under these cirumstances, it takes four to eight times as long as a dedicated crafter to create these items. The way I see it, the idea was to allow more options for character creations and concepts. I fail to see where more options, properly balanced, are a bad thing.
Forget the rules in this instance, because magic item crafting has changed over the editions, and been made easier, more available, more casual. Does it make much sense? Shouldn't they require what lazarx was talking about? Serious resources, rooted to the spot crafting areas (good luck taking the forge, your texts, your magic item imbuing tools all with you), highest quality ingredients. Basically, part of a lair kitted out for the purpose, not just a bedroll, some ingredients, the mw item and that's it.
I'm not talking about other editions/games. I'm talking about Pathfinder. Pathfinder is the first version of the D&D progression to have actually viable magical item crafting. Charging someone XP in order to create a magic item, again, is completely counter-intuitive.
Again, I find it hard to reconcile this line of thought against your previous statement that a character with mundane crafting is just fine, but that magical crafting is somehow inappropriate. A Weapons/Armorcrafter is specifically going to be tied to their forges (per the rules), yet you seemed to say that you'd have no problem with a character doing this and still adventuring.
If they are casual in their magic item making, then I'd expect the goods to be of low quality and not keep their charge for long. You can't forge a great armour of the ages just loading around a few hours a day on it.
Casual items, like scrolls, potions, wands, and other consumables? So you're okay with characters crafting these items then, but not permanent ones.
Permanent items, like weapons, already have additional requirements.
To create a magic weapon, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools.
To craft a weapon, you DO need a workspace. The character would need to lug around a portable forge in order to craft a magical weapon. Restricting access to that forge in certain circumstances ("How are you carrying that anvil down into the dungeon?") is a perfectly reasonable, in-game limitation on crafting.
Crafing in a dangerous environment? What if the imbuing process is disrupted eh? What if you have to get up and go fight something, or stop and do something else. This doesn't make sense. If you don't do it right and with complete attention, without distractions, it shouldn't be properly done.
In the dangerous environment, the crafter slows down, takes their time, and makes sure that the dangerous environment doesn't affect their work. That's why it takes twice-to-four-times as long as it would otherwise.
Against the rules. Well sometimes, the rules make no sense at all.
Again, if you want to change this in your game, then be up-front about it when someone comes to you and says "I want to play a crafting character". Otherwise there's going to be a lot of hurt feelings all the way around.
I think, however, if you simply read the rules for crafting, and enforced them as written, that you'd find they're not so bad.
I haven't forced anyone into the expert class, but if someone spent more time trading, then fighting, and they said they were a swashbuckler, I would be a little incredulous. Same with crafting.
You can get angry at me if you want Avalon, but this side of dnd isn't its best side. I've never seen a crafter (and I've had to see two of them in recent years) actually have fun with crafting. They do it, they are satisfied, satisfied being the perfect word, but this isn't fun, this is accounting and filling item slots. It's blandness means fun is still a long way off, this isn't having a great combat, pulling through a dungeon, saving a player or npc from doom, having a good laugh or making a great joke at the table, don't confuse stuff-crafting with fun. It isn't. It is the greedy scratching their needs.
Well, it's hard to be anything more than "satisfied" when you're making the character miss out on questing with his/her comrades because they're using their class abilities.
Actually Lathiira, there was a character who was making items for himself and two other players. You could say he was contributing to the party in a sense.....? The cavalier was not impressed while the three of them started discussing what items they wanted. It was an extremely not heroic scene.
It was very sad. It went on for something like an hour. DnD is about villains and heroes. The process of how the party eventually moves to being heroes or villains through their actions. If the hour was spent on killing evil, rescuing damsels in distress or good role-playing, it wouldn't have been a problem. The problem was, that it became Pathfinder: The accounting chronicles.
Then perhaps that shouldn't have been an in-character scene? It's quite possible for an OOC shopping list to develop, while the characters have an off-camera discussion about cool stories they've heard, and what they'd like.
This isn't something that should've happened at the gaming table, and I can appreciate how it could bog down play.
I can see where 3.5L is coming from and where he is pushing the game towards. Besides, it would be extremely weird to hear a tale being spun about a famous swordsman or knight who had to constantly upgrade his equipment with magic, therefore relying more on the arcane buffs than their actual mastery of swordsmanship.
The most recent Wheel of Time book had exactly this situation. The way it was written made it pretty freakin' epic.
Perrin, a Blacksmith Apprentice, turned hero, turned General, forged himself a warhammer while spellcasters gathered around him, adding their magical powers to his work. The end result was the first new magical weapon forged since the Age of Legends.
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Get into the dungeons, the evil temple, the courts, the battlefield, the bar, and keep right away from the crafting.
There is no heroism at all in crafting, in winning the items without real effort or striving.
Xp cost or no, whatever you run, this type of blandness takes time. If you avalon think I wouldn't make a great dm, that's cool, but a dm should be taking games away from monotony, sometimes taking some things away from players if they waste others' time. You shouldn't be a dick (rule no. 1) but if players are taking up real time as they craft and excessively shop, those others who don't take this path shouldn't have to sit there and feel their love of the game fade away.
Bloody crafters and shoppers!
The answer to this is simple, player should do their homework, and bring what they want to the GM before the game (or if that's not possible, at the beginning of the game while everyone's setting up, or after the game). Keep the "boring" parts of crafting out of the actual play-time, and it's not going to affect the adventures at all.
What I meant by meta-gaming, is how do the character know what magic items they need? What to look for? That is a serious specialty in arcana to even know all of the specifics of magic items--all that a party could use and spend their loot on, how to make them.
"Perrin, a Blacksmith Apprentice, turned hero, turned General, forged himself a warhammer while spellcasters gathered around him, adding their magical powers to his work. The end result was the first new magical weapon forged since the Age of Legends."
Notice how this scene, described sparsely here, but with some meaning behind it, differs greatly to, I did it over a few days at the end of the day, as I was camping.
Or, I shut myself away, and because I had some money, now all my spells are harder to save against because of my new headband.
:(
Good suggestions on keeping the boring parts out of the game. But some people, the crafting characters, that can be most of what their vacuous character is, a spellcaster whom turns loot into items. That is what they do, that is what they are.
Shopping and crafting also involve a great deal of meta-gaming as well. Suddenly the crafter knows what is required, because the player did the research, they know exactly how to pull it off and how long it will take. Where did they learn this? How do they know what is exactly required to get what they haven't yet made?
Because the character isn't "On-Screen" every moment of their lives. Players of Wizards don't role-play out studying ancient tomes. Players of Fighters don't role-play out practice, or studying tactics. Players of Monks don't role-play out meditation.
THAT would make for a boring game.
Isn't it possible that, during the wizard's research into the arcane, they stumble across a formula for an item that (out of character) the player wants to build?
Isn't it possible that the crafting-cleric gets an inspiring vision during their prayers, showing them what's needed to build a new holy weapon?
Isn't it possible that you're being a little close-minded about this whole thing?
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"Perrin, a Blacksmith Apprentice, turned hero, turned General, forged himself a warhammer while spellcasters gathered around him, adding their magical powers to his work. The end result was the first new magical weapon forged since the Age of Legends."
Notice how this scene, described sparsely here, but with some meaning behind it, differs greatly to, I did it over a few days at the end of the day, as I was camping.
Or, I shut myself away, and because I had some money, now all my spells are harder to save against because of my new headband.
:(
Good suggestions on keeping the boring parts out of the game. But some people, the crafting characters, that can be most of what their vacuous character is, a spellcaster whom turns loot into items. That is what they do, that is what they are.
So what you're objecting to is the lack of role-play description of the actions? That's a failure in gaming, not a failure in the system.
Hmmmm. I'm glad you see the other side of the argument Lathiira. I
agree that one can improve their overall abilities by improving their
equipment. I have nothing against characters getting rings of protection or headbands of intellect. If a character has taken the item creation feats, they should be allowed to craft as much as they like.
However, magic items can also be obtained by slaying foes, defeating
the oppressive overlords and stealing from bandits and assassins. It
doesn't have to be done through crafting. A crafted headband of
intellect for example, doesn't involve risk and danger in the process
of crafting aside from loss of materials on a failed craft check. On
the other hand, if it was obtained through defeating a powerful lich
and the party gets to save a town from being turned into undead, the
sense of achievement is very different.
Think about it. An item crafted=you have it. An item earned through
risk danger and heroism= cheering townsfolk/standing ovation/wild
celebrating and good cheer/you have the item. Two similar items
obtained differently. Yet in the latter, the character who puts on the
item knows he has earned it through courage and heroism. This should be
what the game is about.
"Isn't it possible that you're being a little close-minded about this whole thing?"
You weren't there man, you weren't on the battlefield of bland, you haven't seen what I've seen.
On this:
"So what you're objecting to is the lack of role-play description of the actions? That's a failure in gaming, not a failure in the system."
The system allows you to easily craft magic items, doesn't have to be a big thing, doesn't have to be rare (if you have the loot), doesn't have to involve others or be significant. The system just allows you to make some of the best items out there, and then use them all for yourself if you wish. The accounting chronicles joke has been made because of how unheroic and how much of a calculation the whole process is.
Think about it. An item crafted=you have it. An item earned through risk danger and heroism= cheering townsfolk/standing ovation/wild celebrating and good cheer/you have the item. Two similar items obtained differently. Yet in the latter, the character who puts on the item knows he has earned it through courage and heroism. This should be what the game is about.
The pro-crafting side of this debate isn't disagreeing with this at all. Yet, the game does include crafting rules, for players who want to be able to make the next generation of awesome magical items. 3.5L, and the anti-crafting side of the debate seems to be saying that someone who chooses to use these rules has to be excluded from going on the adventure, not having to risk the dangers, and not becoming heroes.
From a game balance standpoint, cost to craft an item = profit from selling that item. Crafting feats essentially let GMs use equipment on their NPCs that player's aren't interested in using, while still giving the players the ability to grow their characters in the manner originally envisioned.
I spent all of my proficiencies making myself the best one-handed longsword fighter I can be. What the heck am I going to do with this Magical Battle-axe?
I spent all of my feats and training making myself the best one-handed longsword fighter I can be. Hey Wizard, can you lift the enhancements from this Magical Battle-axe, and further enhance my sword?
Mechanically, the PF character can sell off the battle-axe, purchase the materials needed to enhance the sword, and go to town crafting.
Reflavoring it, the wizard works to strip the enchantments from the Battle-Axe, laying them down on the Longsword. There could even be some awesome mental-CGI effects of the magic transfer.
"Isn't it possible that you're being a little close-minded about this whole thing?"
You weren't there man, you weren't on the battlefield of bland, you haven't seen what I've seen.
Fair enough. That was unnecessarily snarky on my part.
On this:
"So what you're objecting to is the lack of role-play description of the actions? That's a failure in gaming, not a failure in the system."The system allows you to easily craft magic items, doesn't have to be a big thing, doesn't have to be rare (if you have the loot), doesn't have to involve others or be significant. The system just allows you to make some of the best items out there, and then use them all for yourself if you wish. The accounting chronicles joke has been made because of how unheroic and how much of a calculation the whole process is.
But I just described an example, a little over 9 months old, from a VERY popular fantasy book series, of how this can work, with the proper in-game descriptions.
The in-game mechanics work just fine for converting magic gear that you're never going to use, into magic gear that's actually useful (with a slight risk of things going wrong, due to failed crafting checks). The flavor of doing this is up to the imaginations of the players and GM.
Again, this doesn't seem like a failure on the part of the game system, so much as a lack of away-from-table planning on the part of the players. We're not talking about abusive crafting at this point (e.g. Bracers of Armor-Spell). I'm talking about replacing published items with published items.
As a GM, go ahead and throw a character using magical full-plate and magical exotic weapons against your party. Now, they don't have to use those items (although, they do have the option). Now they can, through crafting, reskin those items into useful tools for their characters.
Honestly, from a game-flavor standpoint, I'd rather see crafting than MagicMart.
Reflavoring it, the wizard works to strip the enchantments from the Battle-Axe, laying them down on the Longsword. There could even be some awesome mental-CGI effects of the magic transfer.
I've actually been kicking around some house-rules to crafting, to make enhancements similar to FF7's "Materia" components. For those who don't know, magical enhancements are effectively stored in gems, which are then "slotted" into equipment. Sometimes these effects form a special synergy (which would represent special items), sometimes not. There would be a limited number of "Slots" for a weapon, limiting the number of enhancements you could put into a given weapon (thus limiting weapon enhancements to a level-appropriate amount).
Reflavoring it, the wizard works to strip the enchantments from the Battle-Axe, laying them down on the Longsword. There could even be some awesome mental-CGI effects of the magic transfer.I've actually been kicking around some house-rules to crafting, to make enhancements similar to FF7's "Materia" components. For those who don't know, magical enhancements are effectively stored in gems, which are then "slotted" into equipment. Sometimes these effects form a special synergy (which would represent special items), sometimes not. There would be a limited number of "Slots" for a weapon, limiting the number of enhancements you could put into a given weapon (thus limiting weapon enhancements to a level-appropriate amount).
3.5's MIC also has gems that slot into weapons to give them abilities.
3.5's MIC also has gems that slot into weapons to give them abilities.
Great! I'll have to look into that. Thanks for the heads-up!
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I don't understand the point of this thread anymore. We've seen 3.5L's casting rules, stealth rules, item creation rules, and probably more that I'm forgetting. All of it adds up to the fact that it he doesn't play 3.0, 3.5, or Pathfinder. He disagrees with that assessment like he disagrees with all the people arguing in favor of the core rules.
3.5L is enjoying and arguing for his own personal pancake receipt, the rest of us are discussing the waffle receipt out of the cook book. There is no longer any productive discussion of the rules, it is now a discussion of taste. They're futile discussions. 3.5L wouldn't enjoy playing in most of our games, and most of us wouldn't enjoy playing in his.
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Relativism, why do people express it on forums? It is all taste, there is no point to discussion. I think this has been a useful discussion. For instance, when stealth came up, I was surprised people consider that humanoids can and do see all around them at all times. When, it is obvious, you have a direction you are facing, and anything behind your ears is effectively in cover, unless you can see through your own head.
So these materia rules, they sound also quite a bit like diablo. On magic items I also recall talking to another dm, who was using some homebrew rules (oh noes, not a purist). Anyway he had magic items and such in his game, but he got entirely rid of the +1 to + whatever business. As you levelled you, at a certain point you got a + equivalent bonus to hit, damage and armour. A welcome simplification I think.
So the items became a bit less important. You could have a flaming sword or whatever, but at a certain point, every weapon you were using was a +1-3 or so. The sword was flaming, but how good the sword really was, was determined by your level. I found it intriguing, but don't use it. This was for a Dark sun game, and he wanted the players to get better, but have less of the magic loot.
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For instance, when stealth came up, I was surprised people consider that humanoids can and do see all around them at all times. When, it is obvious, you have a direction you are facing, and anything behind your ears is effectively in cover, unless you can see through your own head.
Yeah, but it's a pain to track which way characters are facing at all times, so we just say 'make the Perception check, you looked his way, fail it and you didn't'.
Think about it. An item crafted=you have it. An item earned through
risk danger and heroism= cheering townsfolk/standing ovation/wild
celebrating and good cheer/you have the item. Two similar items
obtained differently. Yet in the latter, the character who puts on the
item knows he has earned it through courage and heroism. This should be
what the game is about.
The sense of achievement is very different indeed. I would prefer to acquire most of my loot from adventuring. But unless the GM tailors items to suit the party, I will end up short in some area, whether my defenses, my stats, my weaponry, whichever. Crafting can permit me to fix that problem. And it can be a problem. A cleric who goes into battle with low AC, whether to fight or heal, is asking for a beating, this I know from experience. You can also get the items you want anyway and then decide to tinker with them to improve them or give them more flavorful abilities.
One problem I have with finding treasure. If I keep finding all the things I need, sooner or later my immersion breaks down as I "luckily" find an upgrade for my weapon/armor/ring/whatever. If I don't find the things I want or need, then I need to take the loot I don't want--and there will be loot I don't want--and convert it to something I do want/need. That means selling the stuff off, maybe use something like what 3.5 Eberron artificers did and break down the magic in the item, and makes something else.
I also agree that much of the trouble 3.5 L is apparently experienced in with crafting can be dealt with by players before the game. I tried to keep it that way in our last campaign, didn't always succeed, but it helps.
Crafting can certainly have its in-game uses and value. At the end of the last campaign, I crafted a set of bracelets for the party that each cast sending 1/day, as the PCs were all going our separate ways and this would let us keep in touch. Nothing difficult, nothing game-breaking, just a nice little doodad. Will crafting always be as thrilling as adventuring? I hope not. But it does have a role to play in the game, just as much as rescuing damsels.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pJarMc7Xq74/TOkT3gNUQFI/AAAAAAAACfg/-vxDUE1hhnE/s 1600/1075479-well_that_s_just_like_your_opinion_man_super.jpg
Relativism, why do people express it on forums? It is all taste, there is no point to discussion. I think this has been a useful discussion. For instance, when stealth came up, I was surprised people consider that humanoids can and do see all around them at all times. When, it is obvious, you have a direction you are facing, and anything behind your ears is effectively in cover, unless you can see through your own head.
So these materia rules, they sound also quite a bit like diablo. On magic items I also recall talking to another dm, who was using some homebrew rules (oh noes, not a purist). Anyway he had magic items and such in his game, but he got entirely rid of the +1 to + whatever business. As you levelled you, at a certain point you got a + equivalent bonus to hit, damage and armour. A welcome simplification I think.
So the items became a bit less important. You could have a flaming sword or whatever, but at a certain point, every weapon you were using was a +1-3 or so. The sword was flaming, but how good the sword really was, was determined by your level. I found it intriguing, but don't use it. This was for a Dark sun game, and he wanted the players to get better, but have less of the magic loot.
Hey, I've got no problem with house rules... but what I don't do is go into a Paper-Rock-Scissors forum, and post a comment about how, when playing with someone new, I was shocked to find out that they didn't consider "Spock" a valid play.
The Materia system was very similar to gem-slotting in Diablo 2, except that in Diablo, putting gems into an item was a permanent change. For Pathfinder, I think I'd rather have "+1" gems, and allow more slots. I wouldn't allow a sixth "+1" gem to have any further effect in an item, but that just keeps the magic items on par with the existing game.
To my mind, Houserules shouldn't be about limiting what is done, but rather trying a different mechanic to do something similar.
On magic items, and players wanting to craft something specific, or even find it, they should actually be making checks to see if their character knows of the item, and what its crafting involves/what it looks like and what are its properties, if you are going to purchase it.
Others have put it this way, say a fighter wants not a magic sword, but something really specific, something to give him a certain type of boost, and the player acts like that person knows the general name of it. How does the fighter know of this? How can they even begin to know of this if they don't have the related skills? Verisimilitude attack!
This can come up especially in low magic games. A month ago you were a slightly trained peasant, and now you want potions of haste, boots of speed, some type of cloak and a periapt of what? When did you hear about all these.
"Yeah, but it's a pain to track which way characters are facing at all times"
They face the direction they describe their characters as facing, or the direction they are heading, or where the action is. In psychology it is called the orienting response. Players can of course adjust this, by declaring actions and stating it. "We are proceeding forward, but I especially watch our backs, and my bow is facing behind us, we are sure to be attacked from behind." Anyone that steps out is then immediately spotted, but would otherwise have a good change of getting surprise.
Or another example, "I raise the torch up and watch the roof for chokers." Any chokers in the light radius will be easily spotted.
"so we just say 'make the Perception check, you looked his way, fail it and you didn't'."
Exactly good man, it is a perception. Humanoids do not have all around vision, they do not see around them at all times or hear anything that breaks from concealment immediately. But you have to watch your back and be involved in the game. I remember in the old days "strokes beard" when you only got as much info, as you asked for, and you had to be quite active. None of this auto perception business. If players aren't saying they are paying attention, then their role-played character is not paying the height of attention either.
"Crafting can certainly have its in-game uses and value. At the end of the last campaign, I crafted a set of bracelets for the party that each cast sending 1/day, as the PCs were all going our separate ways and this would let us keep in touch. Nothing difficult, nothing game-breaking, just a nice little doodad. Will crafting always be as thrilling as adventuring? I hope not. But it does have a role to play in the game, just as much as rescuing damsels."
What an excellent little set of items. I like the idea. Notice it didn't boost stats and helps the group and party communication. Five stars.
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Damn straight Lazarx. It is a lot of work, and powerful items should not just be able to be done on the road, but we are probably viewing it from a more 3.0 ed perspective.
To Lath, that is one thing that does come up. So the highly active and driven non-crafting characters can set off ahead, get xp find a range of different loot, meet new npcs etc etc. Now what they get will be dependent on the type of game they are hunting, if it is thieves guilds, well it'll be loot and a few tricky items, if they are robbing mages different sort of stuff.
And the crafter sits back, and makes items perfect for what they need, exactly what they need even. It just strikes me as really wrong. For the others it is variable, for the crafter, the selfish crafter, it is whatever they want, dependent on the feats they took. It is like sacrificing feats to get specific magic items when you meet the pre-reqs. Just get out and adventure already! Is my opinion.
On the document, a bit of progress, I could simplify what is in place.
You think the point of adventuring is to adventure. Many of us think the point of adventuring is to accomplish goal X(stop evil demon, necromancer, etc). Many adventurers start off with people thrown into extraordinary situations. They don't want to be out there risking their lives, but they know if they don't do it that it won't get done. That is what makes them the heroes. If magic items get them back home safely then why would they not make the magic items. You are basically telling the player how he should be a hero instead of letting him save the day how he wants to.
Isn't it a bit ridiculous, that one can make powerful magic items casually over a few hours each day? Are these great items worthy of song which last through the ages and go through new hoards over time, or are they whittled bits of wood done at the campfire when you are bored?
All you are doing is adding magic to an item. Why should that be so hard? The permanency spell does the same thing(adds magic to things). If the idea of adding magic to things permanently is the issue then you may want to ban that spell also.
Forget the rules in this instance, because magic item crafting has changed over the editions, and been made easier, more available, more casual. Does it make much sense? Shouldn't they require what lazarx was talking about? Serious resources, rooted to the spot crafting areas (good luck taking the forge, your texts, your magic item imbuing tools all with you), highest quality ingredients. Basically, part of a lair kitted out for the purpose, not just a bedroll, some ingredients, the mw item and that's it.
I would understand a forge being need to forge the actual sword, but not to add magic to it. All it takes to add magic is some ritual and the casting of spells. Crafting the magic item does not include the crafting of the sword, despite the name. All you are doing is making item X magical.
Which brings us to some of the big changes of pathfinder. What used to be difficult has been made easier, what once required a lot of effort and investment now can just be done without hindrance. They are so careful not to offend players, to make buffing and filling the item slots so very easy.
So crafting, well you don't need areas set up for that purpose, no now you can do that in the wild, on the road, while you are cooking your bacon.
Xp cost? Naa, we got rid of that too. So its easier, and there is no cost other than wealth, which is required to make the items. Cost in crafting facilities, a wizards tower or a site to imbue items with holy power, no that isn't required now.
Like I said, feats + wealth = whatever magic items you can make, with a huge selection for each crafting type feat. And magic items are meant to be special. Making bread requires more facilities.
I never felt they were special. As a player when I get a book with new feats or items the joy of the "new" thing is there, but my character is not impressed, and a GM making the item rare is not going to change that. It would be like if Mcdonalds made their cheeseburgers cost $5.00. You just upped the price, but it is still just a cheeseburger.