I have my first character who is going to be spending time crafting and I have to admit that the crafting rules are making my brain melt. I've got most of it in place (the calculation of costs, etc), but there's one thing nagging at me: Caster level.
I've always understood the minimum CL to make these things as "minimum level for YOUR CHARACTER to cast the spell." It gives Wizards an edge as creators, since they are the fastest to gain spell levels.
But then while looking through items, I started to doubt that. For instance, let's look at the Winged Boots. They are command-word activated boots that give the user 5 minutes of Fly up to 3 times per day. They are 16000G to buy, 8000G to make.
Based on the fact that the user gets 5 minutes of Fly, it seems that would correspond to the minimum caster level for Fly, a 5th-level Wizard.
Now let's say we wanted to create a nearly identical item; let's call them Gloves of Fly. Going by the item creation prices, a command-word item is 1800 GP * Clvl * slvl. For a Wizard casting Fly, this is 27000. By reducing it to 3 uses per day, we multiply the cost by (3/5). Doing so, we get 16200 GP. This is in the ballpark for the buy cost listed for the boots, so the creation cost would be 8,100 GP. Close enough.
Anyway, now let's consider a Sorcerer and Magus.
Wizards get 3rd level spells at 5th level. They can create the gloves for 8100 G.
Sorcerers at 6th level. 9720 G.
Magi at 7th level. 11340 G.
This means that it is 1620 G more expensive for a Sorcerer to make this minimum-level item, and 3240 G more expensive for a Magus. The only difference is that when activated, the Wizard's gloves last 5 minutes, the Sorcerer's gloves last 6 minutes, and the Magus' gloves last 7 minutes.
My question: Can casters create items using a spell below their class' minimum CL for the spell if it is still equal to or greater than the minimum CL for any class to cast the spell?
In other words, can a Sorcerer or Magus create these nearly-identical gloves at the minimum level of 5, giving them 5 minutes of use for each activation? If not, why not? Presumably Sorcerers and Magi can create the Winged Boots for the listed effects and 8000 G pricetag. To say they can create the Winged Boots (CL5) but not the Gloves of Fly (CL5) seems to do nothing other than limit player creativity--I'm not going to spend thousands of extra gold for a barely-better item when the CRB already has the item for far less than what I'd pay for it otherwise.
I hope this all makes sense. I'm practically losing my mind over these crafting rules. I need someone to weigh in on this so I can stop obsessing about it.
I have my first character who is going to be spending time crafting and I have to admit that the crafting rules are making my brain melt. I've got most of it in place (the calculation of costs, etc), but there's one thing nagging at me: Caster level.
I've always understood the minimum CL to make these things as "minimum level for YOUR CHARACTER to cast the spell." It gives Wizards an edge as creators, since they are the fastest to gain spell levels.
But then while looking through items, I started to doubt that. For instance, let's look at the Winged Boots. They are command-word activated boots that give the user 5 minutes of Fly up to 3 times per day. They are 16000G to buy, 8000G to make.
Based on the fact that the user gets 5 minutes of Fly, it seems that would correspond to the minimum caster level for Fly, a 5th-level Wizard.
Now let's say we wanted to create a nearly identical item; let's call them Gloves of Fly. Going by the item creation prices, a command-word item is 1800 GP * Clvl * slvl. For a Wizard casting Fly, this is 27000. By reducing it to 3 uses per day, we multiply the cost by (3/5). Doing so, we get 16200 GP. This is in the ballpark for the buy cost listed for the boots, so the creation cost would be 8,100 GP. Close enough.
Anyway, now let's consider a Sorcerer and Magus.
Wizards get 3rd level spells at 5th level. They can create the gloves for 8100 G.
Sorcerers at 6th level. 9720 G.
Magi at 7th level. 11340 G.This means that it is 1620 G more expensive for a Sorcerer to make this minimum-level item, and 3240 G more expensive for a Magus. The only difference is that when activated, the Wizard's gloves last 5 minutes, the Sorcerer's gloves last 6 minutes, and the Magus' gloves last 7 minutes.
My question: Can casters create items using a spell below their class' minimum CL for the spell if it is still equal to or greater than the minimum CL for any class to cast the spell?
In other words, can a Sorcerer or Magus create these nearly-identical gloves at the minimum...
Generally speaking, Caster Level for an item has one and only one effect, and that is the difficulty of dispelling the item with dispell magic which requires a CL check against the CL of the item. Unless the item has a specific caster level as a prerequisite, then you don't actually need to be at the item's CL in order to make it (or else, for example, pearls of power would never get made). You just need to be able to cast all the spells, and even those can be bypassed by increasing the DC by 5 for each spell you don't have (assuming the item is not a spell completion item or potion).
The only other time that CL really matters is when the item is actually casting a spell as opposed to just having a spell effect. The boots of flying behave roughly like a 5th level wizard making a 3/day charged item that casts fly. But its pretty rough. And once the item is made, it doesn't matter WHO made it.
... I am talking myself in circles here. Essentially, don't analyze it so much. Only go to the formulas if you can't find a similar item. If you want to make gloves of flying, go for it. Price them exactly like boots of flying, since they are identical in all ways except what slot they take. However, discuss all of this with your GM first as he might want to control how much of this you can do. Some items have to take the same slot as other items, and that was an intentional decision. For example, you can't get a belt of +2 Str and a headband of +2 Con. You have to pay the premium to get them in one item. You can't get boots of springing and striding and boots of fly. You get either fly, or move speed, or pay to combine them into one. Just shunting them off to a different slot messes with the game a bit.
FINAL POINT: You can set the item's caster level to whatever you want when you make the item. If a sorc really wanted to make some boots of cast fly 3 times per day instead of making some boots of flying, then he could do so. And he could set their CL at 5 instead of his actual CL if he wanted to keep the price down. The cost of that low price is the item is easier to dispell
EDIT: You can set the CL below the minimum necessary for ANYONE to cast the spell. If you wanted you could makes boots of fly that last 1 minute with a CL of 1. (ALSO EDIT: removed a confusing line from paragraph above)
FINAL POINT: You can set the item's caster level to whatever you want when you make the item, so long as it is at least your level. If a sorc really wanted to make some boots of cast fly 3 times per day instead of making some boots of flying, then he could do so. And he could set their CL at 5 instead of his actual CL if he wanted to keep the price down. The cost of that low price is the item is easier to dispellEDIT: You can set the CL below the minimum necessary for ANYONE to cast the spell. If you wanted you could makes boots of fly that last 1 minute with a CL of 1.
I'm sorry, that is not correct. The CL has to be between the Minimum CL required for the Spell (which is why the OP was probably asking) and the Maximum of your caster level. You cannot create an item with a CL higher than your own CL. You can create one lower, but not lower than the minimum level to cast the spell.
To the OP, I would say the minimum CL is the minimum CL your class can cast the spell (if it can), and if not, then the minimum CL of any class that can cast the spell (this assumes you are using the +5 DC to craft something who's spell is not on your list).
Magic Weapons/Armor have different CL requirements. The minimum CL required by the caster (which CANNOT be bypassed) is 3 times the Enhancement Bonus (Thus, level 9 to do a +3 item). You cannot set the CL lower than that minimum (but you could set it higher if you wanted to, for example, making level 10 if you make a +3 at level 10).
I thought I remembered seeing it posted that errata was made that said you dont have to even have the min CL if you take an extra +5 on the difficulty to make the item? I thought there was a big stink on the forums about this a few months ago, or am I remembering something else?
When you don't create magic armor, magic weapons, scrolls, staves, wands and potions then caster level isn't a requirement at all (it was indeed an errata removing a line from the core book).
Whether you can take a +5 to the DC to bypass the magic armor and weapons CL requirement is something to be dabated upon and the devs are still silent on that one but we have been told that they are thinking about it.
To the OP, I would say the minimum CL is the minimum CL your class can cast the spell (if it can), and if not, then the minimum CL of any class that can cast the spell (this assumes you are using the +5 DC to craft something who's spell is not on your list).
But this makes no sense. What you're telling me is that, for instance, I could only create say, a Cloak of Blink (3rd level Magus spell) as if I were Caster Level 7 (as opposed to 5 for a Wizard, again), but I could create a Cloak of Cloak of Winds (LOL recursion), which is NOT a Magus spell, for just +5 DC to craft it, at ANY level I like, minimum 5.
It's easy to min/max skills to make those Crafting DCs not too bad. Why would it be possible for me to have greater control over the caster level of a spell I can't normally cast than it is over a spell I use every day?
Even if you stick to that interpretation, would you allow a player to take the +5 DC to craft (pretending he doesn't know the spell) so that he can prepare it at the minimum Wizard level? If so, doesn't this all seem a bit absurd?
I thought I remembered seeing it posted that errata was made that said you dont have to even have the min CL if you take an extra +5 on the difficulty to make the item? I thought there was a big stink on the forums about this a few months ago, or am I remembering something else?The minimum CL still sets the DC for making the item though.
Exactly. And, you can't set the CL to 1 if the spell is a 2nd level spell. By the same token, you can't set the CL to 10 if you're CL is 8. So you have a sandwhich'd range of what the CL of the item can be when you craft it. Note I'm not saying what YOUR CL can be, but what you can set the CL of the item to be.
But this makes no sense. What you're telling me is that, for instance, I could only create say, a Cloak of Blink (3rd level Magus spell) as if I were Caster Level 7 (as opposed to 5 for a Wizard, again), but I could create a Cloak of Cloak of Winds (LOL recursion), which is NOT a Magus spell, for just +5 DC to craft it, at ANY level I like, minimum 5.It's easy to min/max skills to make those Crafting DCs not too bad. Why would it be possible for me to have greater control over the caster level of a spell I can't normally cast than it is over a spell I use every day?
Even if you stick to that interpretation, would you allow a player to take the +5 DC to craft (pretending he doesn't know the spell) so that he can prepare it at the minimum Wizard level? If so, doesn't this all seem a bit absurd?
Sorry, I didn't state that too well did I? What I was trying to say was, set the minimum CL of the Item to either the CL of the spell on your list, or the minimum CL of any caster (but then take the +5 for not using the spell). Basically, you're a Cleric trying to make the item at the same minimum CL as a wizard, but you don't have the spell at a low enough CL to do so, so you can't use your own spell, you have to 'fake' it trying to duplicate a wizard's approach, which makes it harder (thus +5 DC).
and the devs are still silent on that one but we have been told that they are thinking about it.
I asked Sean at Gen Con if they were planning to write a blog on clearing up crafting of magic items, as it was something I had heard that was going to happen a couple months back. He told me it was something he was not aware of (in regards to the blog). When I clarified the issues with how it is unclear what situations can have a +5 DC added to it, he agreed it is a rule that needs to be clarified, but directed me over to Jason (Buhlman).
When I asked Jason, he agreed with Sean (about clarifying about the +5), but could not give me any timeframe on when it would be done.
At least they acknowledge the issue, let's hope we don't have to wait on the clarification.
Note that in PF, the CL isn't that big a deal anymore, except when it comes to dispel.
If you are making a Pearl of Power 2nd level, and your CL is 5, then your pearl of Power 2nd level is a CL 5 item, not a CL 17 item (per the book). Your pearl will get dispelled much easier than the same item made by a 17th level wizard.
Sorry, I didn't state that too well did I? What I was trying to say was, set the minimum CL of the Item to either the CL of the spell on your list, or the minimum CL of any caster (but then take the +5 for not using the spell). Basically, you're a Cleric trying to make the item at the same minimum CL as a wizard, but you don't have the spell at a low enough CL to do so, so you can't use your own spell, you have to 'fake' it trying to duplicate a wizard's approach, which makes it harder (thus +5 DC).
But this makes no sense. What you're telling me is that, for instance, I could only create say, a Cloak of Blink (3rd level Magus spell) as if I were Caster Level 7 (as opposed to 5 for a Wizard, again), but I could create a Cloak of Cloak of Winds (LOL recursion), which is NOT a Magus spell, for just +5 DC to craft it, at ANY level I like, minimum 5.It's easy to min/max skills to make those Crafting DCs not too bad. Why would it be possible for me to have greater control over the caster level of a spell I can't normally cast than it is over a spell I use every day?
Even if you stick to that interpretation, would you allow a player to take the +5 DC to craft (pretending he doesn't know the spell) so that he can prepare it at the minimum Wizard level? If so, doesn't this all seem a bit absurd?
I get how it works when the spells are not on your spell list, but what I'm most concerned with is when they ARE on your list, but where your minimum CL to cast the spell is higher than the cross-class minimum CL to cast the spell.
In that situation (a Magus creating a Magus-spell item, or an Oracle creating an Oracle-spell item), can they add +5 to the DC of the item creation to treat it as if they were trying to make the item using Wizard-equivalent or Cleric-equivalent minimum caster levels, respectively?
If you are making a Pearl of Power 2nd level, and your CL is 5, then your pearl of Power 2nd level is a CL 5 item, not a CL 17 item (per the book). Your pearl will get dispelled much easier than the same item made by a 17th level wizard.
Just to be clear, those caster levels listed in the book have nothing to do with when crafting the item. That CL is only there as a quick reference for the DM when handing out magic items as treasure or making a roll against it if an NPC has a magic item.
To figure out the CL of an item for crafting purposes, it is the CL of what you would need to cast the highest level spell as part of the requirements with the item.
If you are making a Pearl of Power 2nd level, and your CL is 5, then your pearl of Power 2nd level is a CL 5 item, not a CL 17 item (per the book). Your pearl will get dispelled much easier than the same item made by a 17th level wizard.Just to be clear, those caster levels listed in the book have nothing to do with when crafting the item. That CL is only there as a quick reference for the DM when handing out magic items as treasure or making a roll against it if an NPC has a magic item.
To figure out the CL of an item for crafting purposes, it is the CL of what you would need to cast the highest level spell as part of the requirements with the item.
Or just use the listed CL for crafting just so you and your group save time, that's how we run it in my group, we use the listed CL for all items so that we save ourselves time. Also it can be debated that you can set the CL of a wondrous item at whatever CL you want as long as you can make the crafting DC.
Or just use the listed CL for crafting just so you and your group save time, that's how we run it in my group, we use the listed CL for all items so that we save ourselves time.
You obviously can do whatever you want in a home campaign. I am just referring to what has been discussed before in the past in regards to the difference between ICL (item caster level) and CCL (character caster level) and it has been said more than once you should go by the CCL in crafting the item as the ICL doesn't make sense in a lot of instances. The Pearl of Power a perfect example for a ICL of 17, for a 1st level Pearl of Power.
Besides, I am one who prefers to be able to set the ICL to my level (i.e. not the minimum) when making the item as I do like that higher CL for that Dispel Magic roll against my item.
Also it can be debated that you can set the CL of a wondrous item at whatever CL you want as long as you can make the crafting DC.
Yes, I have seen that debate as well. There is just no RAW limiting you on the ICL to your current CCL, even though it would make the most sense.
It is one of the things I have been hoping for clarification on.
Yes i know i was in one or two of those threads.
I also hope for a clarification.
Here is the relevant text from the Core Book FAQ:
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
So if you want to make that item with Flying and you are not able to cast that level of spell yet, then it is +5 to the DC. It does not matter what level other casters get the spell, only what level you get it and if it is on your spell list at all. Also remember that you can work with other people when making items and you can have a 5th level wizard cast the spell for you to avoid the +5 to DC.
Here is the relevant text from the Core Book FAQ:
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.So if you want to make that item with Flying and you are not able to cast that level of spell yet, then it is +5 to the DC. It does not matter what level other casters get the spell, only what level you get it and if it is on your spell list at all. Also remember that you can work with other people when making items and you can have a 5th level wizard cast the spell for you to avoid the +5 to DC.
You're missing the point; I have a 10th level Magus. I want to know if I can craft things below the level I gained the ability to cast those spells (3rd level spells at CL5 instead of 7th level, when I gained them).
I know how it works for spell levels I can't cast yet; the question is if I can enchant at a CL anywhere between the minimum CL needed to make the item (Wiz5) and my CL (Mag10).
Yeah, that was more in reply to some of the other posts.
This deals with your question, from page 549, middle of the second full paragraph:
A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than
her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to
cast the needed spell.
Just because multiple classes can learn the same spell does not mean they learn it in exactly the same way. So a wizard knows the wizard version, a sorcerer knows the sorcerer version and a magus knows the magus version, and they have to use the their own caster level where they learn the spell, not that of another class.
Yeah, that was more in reply to some of the other posts.
This deals with your question, from page 549, middle of the second full paragraph:
Just because multiple classes can learn the same spell does not mean they learn it in exactly the same way. So a wizard knows the wizard version, a sorcerer knows the sorcerer version and a magus knows the magus version, and they have to use the their own caster level where they learn the spell, not that of another class.A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than
her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to
cast the needed spell.
So how do you deal with the fact that Sorcerers and Magi can make Winged Boots at the GP cost and spell effects of Fly cast at CL5 when they can only cast Fly at CL6 or CL7?
"It's magic, shut up"?
You just put the item's CL at 6 or 7, for most if not all wondrous items it doesn't make a difference (apart from dispelling), and yes a 3rd level magus with the craft wondrous items feat can make Winged Boots if he can make the crafting DC of 17 (5 base + 5 for not having fly + 7 minimum caster level for a magus to cast fly), and of course have 8000gp to spare.
So unless your magus has +0 INT modifier it can craft at 3rd level.
You just put the item's CL at 6 or 7, for most if not all wondrous items it doesn't make a difference (apart from dispelling), and yes a 3rd level magus with the craft wondrous items feat can make Winged Boots if he can make the crafting DC of 17 (5 base + 5 for not having fly + 7 minimum caster level for a magus to cast fly), and of course have 8000gp to spare.
So unless your magus has +0 INT modifier it can craft at 3rd level.
Fly is a Magus spell.
Anyway, I feel like we're talking in circles and you guys aren't getting or really addressing my question. I appreciate the input, though.
You just put the item's CL at 6 or 7, for most if not all wondrous items it doesn't make a difference (apart from dispelling), and yes a 3rd level magus with the craft wondrous items feat can make Winged Boots if he can make the crafting DC of 17 (5 base + 5 for not having fly + 7 minimum caster level for a magus to cast fly), and of course have 8000gp to spare.
So unless your magus has +0 INT modifier it can craft at 3rd level.Fly is a Magus spell.
Anyway, I feel like we're talking in circles and you guys aren't getting or really addressing my question. I appreciate the input, though.
Emphasis mine.
Ok first of all, how does the bolded part of your post relates to my post?Now you have to understand that you are trying to understand how crafting magic items work and that's not an easy task for anyone, in addition the magic item crafting rules have one or two gray (as in unFAQed) areas, and most importantly you are trying to mess with custom made magic items for which we have only guidelines.
All of the above aren't easy and has taken most of us one or two gigantic threads to sort it out.
My advice is to do what i said before, make a house rule that you can only make carbon copies of published items and be done with it.
You just put the item's CL at 6 or 7, for most if not all wondrous items it doesn't make a difference (apart from dispelling), and yes a 3rd level magus with the craft wondrous items feat can make Winged Boots if he can make the crafting DC of 17 (5 base + 5 for not having fly + 7 minimum caster level for a magus to cast fly), and of course have 8000gp to spare.
So unless your magus has +0 INT modifier it can craft at 3rd level.Fly is a Magus spell.
Anyway, I feel like we're talking in circles and you guys aren't getting or really addressing my question. I appreciate the input, though.
Emphasis mine.
Ok first of all, how does the bolded part of your post relates to my post?
Emphasis mine.
I see you made the Magus 3rd level, which is probably why you added that, but I don't understand why you are using an underleveled Magus for your examples because it is not the situation I'm asking about. I see you're making the craft DC set to the minimum CL for a Magus, but I feel it's just confusing the issue to compound it with the rules for substituting required spells by upping the DC of the craft check.
So your ruling in this case is that the Magus pays the same amount and gets the exact same item, but has a more difficult Craft check? That seems absurd to me, though I can recognize that it at least follows some kind of cohesive rule that you can abstract across all items. But I maintain that the listed items that have precisely the same effects and have precisely the same costs should have precisely the same Craft DC for any two characters that meet the prerequisites to create the item.
He used an underleveled magus as an example because that is the minimum level to have that crafting feat.
But anyway, if the minimum caster level for a Magus to learn Fly is 7, then that is the minimum caster level the item can have when made by a Magus who is using his spell list. And if an underleveled Magus is making the item on his own, the caster level of the item would still be 7 because he is using his spell list and there would be the normal +5 to DC. Now, if a Magus, whether underleveled or not, were to employ a Wizard to supply the Fly spell who sets it to minimum caster level or were to use a Fly scroll written by a 5th level Wizard, then I would assume the caster level of the item would be 5 and not 7.
As for this:
So your ruling in this case is that the Magus pays the same amount and gets the exact same item, but has a more difficult Craft check?
It has been stated by folks from Paizo, either James or Sean, I think, that character classes with the same spells get them at different levels on purpose, even if it makes a spell not as good for one class as it is for another. I would have to find their posts to give you more details, but they plan to keep on doing it that way.