Not familiar with the Half-Ogre, so I'm gonna ignore that bit. Also, good lord, your stats are insane. Moving on.
You need to come up with a concept for your Bard. This concept should include both a combat style you'd like to pursue and a party role. Until you've got this it's gonna be downright difficult to offer you any advice. Here are a few ideas to get you started.
Combat Styles
- Archer
- Sword & Board
- Skirmisher
- Throwing Weapons
- Two-Handed Monster
- Combat Maneuver Specialist
Character Roles
- Knowledge Expert
- Artificer/Craftsman
- Stealth Specialist
- Party Face
- Dungeon Specialist
A couple of things to keep in mind:
- Don't focus on a concept that states "I want to buff my allies." You're a bard. You will be buffing your allies. There's really no way around that. In fact, it's difficult to not buff your allies.
- Pick whatever sounds cool/fun/whatevs. Feel free to combine multiple character roles, but be warned about combat styles: you really only have enough feats to pursue one successfully.
- Don't look at the archetypes yet! It can be a bit overwhelming for new bards. Come up with a concept that you like for your character and then start digging through your options. The people on the boards are more than helpful and will guide you towards archetypes/feats/spells that best suit your concept.
- Don't play something because it's mechanically sound. Play it because it's fun.
Altarlost, I feel like you underestimate the bard in pathfinder. A stealth specialist is a great fit for a bard in terms of scouting, but in combat it's an inferior choice for most classes in terms of optimisation. You won't cast spells while hiding, but you've got lots of magic to assist an otherwise gimped stealth option: including blur. And playing an artificer is cake: its just a higher DC on the spellcraft check if you lack the spell.
You aren't wrong about sword + shield, though. It's not a great choice for any class.
First decide what kind of bard you want to play. Caster, melee, archer?
Stay away from Combat Maneuver Specialist and sword and Sword & Board. Large and str 18? Don't play Skirmisher.
Combat Maneuver Specialist is fun at lower levels but at higher it will not be as fun. You can't trip dragons and other creatures and disarm won't work times when you meet foes without weapons. True you are large but you are not a full BAB class. If you still want to play a Combat Maneuver Specialist go for trip. You can trip creatures using natural weapons, but you can disarm them.
Sword & Board is no good. You need on hand free to cast spells.
With the rolls you got I would say Archer or Two-Handed Monster. You can actually use a longsword as a Two-Handed Monster.
Since you are large I think you shoudl play a melee bard. Combat reflexes is good.
Second, you want to play a Core Bard or an Archetype?
Core bard is really good and so are some of the Archetypes.
Because you are large you should put some high stat in dex,
Advice:
Str: 18
dex: 16,
Con: 16 or 14
Int 14 or 16
Wis: 12
Char: 16
If you play the core bard or an Archetype with bardic knowledge 14 int is fine, if not go for int 16. You REALLY want all the skills you can get and boost to int is nice for knowledge skills.
I'm playing a human Arcane Duelist with int 14. It's great but more skills per level would be nice. She has traded her Favored Class bonus to skills/HP for more spells.
The Arcane Duelist (from the APG) is a very very good melee bard.
There are lots of good Archetypes like Sound Striker, but Sound Striker needs a good char, but 16 is good.
I'll post more when I you answered.
Edit: I agree with Sean FitzSimon. Go for the core bard.
ml
Sword & Board is no good. You need on hand free to cast spells.
Just in case you do not know: you can cast with a light shield :-)
Bards are great!
Probably a core bard focusing on melee. I don't have much time to look at the other archetypes.
ok
Edit:what stat do you use for a Half-Ogre?
I would actually advice against Half-Ogre if you are going to play it like a monster with class levels.
They will probably have a level adjustment of at least +1, unless you have a kind DM. Also they will probaly have penalties to int and char.
3.5 Half ogre:
+6 Strength, +2 Constitution, −2 Intelligence, −2 charisma:
Level Adjustment: +2
Also check out Treantmonk's Guide to Bards
Link
You could just play a large human or a large half-ork. Obviously he will have a +2 bonus to str and a -2 do dex du to size.
What else?
I give you more info as soon as I know how what base stat your DM will use for an Half-ogre.
ml
Sword & Board is no good. You need on hand free to cast spells.Just in case you do not know: you can cast with a light shield :-)
No, but you can cast spells using a buckler. Buckler and light shield grants you the same AC bonus so Buckler is better.
If Amurion is going to fight two handed he should use a master work buckler to avoid the -1 to attack.
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ml
Sword & Board is no good. You need on hand free to cast spells.Just in case you do not know: you can cast with a light shield :-)
No, but you can cast spells using a buckler. Buckler and light shield grants you the same AC bonus so Buckler is better.
If Amurion is going to fight two handed he should use a master work buckler to avoid the -1 to attack.
You can cast spells using a light shield, because you can transfer your weapon to your shield hand as a free action, cast your spell, and then transfer your weapon back.
Those stats are ridiculous. See if you can switch the 16 and the 12, because Bards get tons of skill points, and a 16 CHA gives you a lot more spell power and flexibility.
If you're going Core bard, remember that you best help the group by buffing first, and then going in hot and heavy with your 18 strength. I'd recommend grabbing Lunge when you can, to really capitalize on your large size reach.
If Amurion is going to fight two handed he should use a master work buckler to avoid the -1 to attack.
Also, that doesn't work.
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Go str 18 (+ the half-ogre, which will be +4 or so?), 16 Dex, and just wield a longspear. Combat reflexes as first feat. Should grant you several extra attacks to start combat, for massive damage; you can basically sing then set up your AOOs to start combat. You with a fighter in front will make a perfect "blockade" for the back line.
Who cares? With alt races and stats like that you can do anything and succeed; spear will just max combat power.
I see the problem here, you want to play a bard.
Bards are very good at making other people look good, but in my experience, unless they use a ton of bardic knowledge they are in no way shape are form a fun class to play.
At low levels, you just stand back and sing, which gives everyone a buff that the players usually forget to write down. Fighters get flashy with damage, Mages get to be the stars with magic, Clerics get to be the stars when it comes to keeping the party up. Bards, well...., it's nice to have a bard, if someone wants to be a Bard, I will never stop them, because that makes me better. As a bard, you shouldn't ever expect to be the center of attention, despite that in game that is what the character is all about, however the same could be said with respect to Rogues.
I see the problem here, you want to play a bard.
Bards are very good at making other people look good, but in my experience, unless they use a ton of bardic knowledge they are in no way shape are form a fun class to play.
At low levels, you just stand back and sing, which gives everyone a buff that the players usually forget to write down. Fighters get flashy with damage, Mages get to be the stars with magic, Clerics get to be the stars when it comes to keeping the party up. Bards, well...., it's nice to have a bard, if someone wants to be a Bard, I will never stop them, because that makes me better. As a bard, you shouldn't ever expect to be the center of attention, despite that in game that is what the character is all about, however the same could be said with respect to Rogues.
Mate, with all due respect, you have no clue what you're talking about and have clearly never looked at the PF bard.
Take a look at the class. Read treantmonk's guide to it. Look over all the archetypes and check out their new spells.
Then come back to this thread.
Take a look at the class. Read treantmonk's guide to it. Look over all the archetypes and check out their new spells.
Then come back to this thread.
Will do. I was under the assumption that they haven't changed that much since 3.5, I could be wrong, probably am. It is not a class that has ever appealed to me.
I see the problem here, you want to play a bard.
Bards are very good at making other people look good, but in my experience, unless they use a ton of bardic knowledge they are in no way shape are form a fun class to play.
At low levels, you just stand back and sing, which gives everyone a buff that the players usually forget to write down. Fighters get flashy with damage, Mages get to be the stars with magic, Clerics get to be the stars when it comes to keeping the party up. Bards, well...., it's nice to have a bard, if someone wants to be a Bard, I will never stop them, because that makes me better. As a bard, you shouldn't ever expect to be the center of attention, despite that in game that is what the character is all about, however the same could be said with respect to Rogues.
Yay, bard-hate finally found its way into the thread!
Bards can play as a specialized combatant who holds his own and boosts the party at the same time, or it can be played as a back line buffer who spends two rounds boosting everyone and then uselessly tossing arrows into combat. You don't have to be awful or even mediocre- but many people seem to think that you do.
There are a lot of excellent suggestions in this thread. I recommend that you look them over and pursue what might be your newest favorite class!
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Bards are pretty powerful, especially given their archtypes. In general, you want to be the arcane duelist (free feats ftw), or one of the archetypes that lets you remove traps (flexibility). Once you hit 7th and you can do the "haste-bardsong" round 1 while keeping people at bay with your spear, you will be amazing.
Bards are pretty powerful, especially given their archtypes. In general, you want to be the arcane duelist (free feats ftw), or one of the archetypes that lets you remove traps (flexibility). Once you hit 7th and you can do the "haste-bardsong" round 1 while keeping people at bay with your spear, you will be amazing.
I found the Sandman archetype to be my favorite. It's very much the spellthief+beguiler from 3.5 splat, and makes an excellent dungeon delver. It even gives you half a rogue's progression sneak attack to shore up your damage as you level up.
Yay, bard-hate finally found its way into the thread!
Bards can play as a specialized combatant who holds his own and boosts the party at the same time, or it can be played as a back line buffer who spends two rounds boosting everyone and then uselessly tossing arrows into combat. You don't have to be awful or even mediocre- but many people seem to think that you do.
There are a lot of excellent suggestions in this thread. I recommend that you look them over and pursue what might be your newest favorite class!
Just read the Bard, though it is still not my style of play, I will admit that they have gotten a LOT better since 3.5. They are actually, dare I say useful. The main difference is that I could be convinced to play a Pathfinder Bard, but not a 3.5 Bard.
Just read the Bard, though it is still not my style of play, I will admit that they have gotten a LOT better since 3.5. They are actually, dare I say useful. The main difference is that I could be convinced to play a Pathfinder Bard, but not a 3.5 Bard.
I admit, wholeheartedly, that the 3.5 bard and PF bard both lack any clear direction for the character in terms of base mechanics. Some people look at the class and think "what does it do?" And that's a reasonable question. These are the people who tend to say that the bard is an excellent 5th member to a party. Others, like myself, look at a the bard and think "I could build this into any sort of character I wanted!" It's abilities are so varied that you really have to choose a focus for the character and avoid the jack-of-all-trades style that the system punishes you for.
Plus, the 3.5 bard was (in my opinion) the strongest weapon user in the game. Through a couple poorly designed feats you could be adding 10d6+10 [elemental] damage to every attack that your party makes for the length of combat. And that's before you even hit 10th level.
But to get back on track: Strength is the way to go for this character, no doubt. Do keep in mind that a throwing weapon character isn't a poor back-up for a high strength build.
Will do. I was under the assumption that they haven't changed that much since 3.5, I could be wrong, probably am. It is not a class that has ever appealed to me.
Take a look at the class. Read treantmonk's guide to it. Look over all the archetypes and check out their new spells.
Then come back to this thread.
Here's the thing. You don't need to sing to perform. In fact, RAW you don't need to do ANYTHING to perform. You just start using your performances. It's like Rage, but helps everyone out. They're great. At level 7, you can do Inspire Courage, Haste, and Good Hope all in one round with a rod of quicken, lesser. That's something like +5 to hit, +4 damage, +2 saves, +1 extra attack on a full-attack, and +30' move speed. It's amazing. All the extra hits that hit due to your buffs are *YOUR* damage, not the fighters. Same goes for the extra attack.
And you can then do anything you want later on in combat.
Inspire Courage now gives +to-hit/damage as a competence bonus, so it stacks with a lot more now. That along makes these guys much more awesome.
Arcane Duelist is really good, getting 6 free useful feats and a bunch of other stuff.
Magician is quite good too.
I'll get some actual advice later. One thing to really think about is a Trip Master Whip Bard. Especially with the Whip Master feat chain in UC.
Arcane Duelist archer is quite good too. All your buffs will be a HUGE boon due to all the arrows you'll get. At 9th level, you'll easily be shooting 5 arrows a turn, and 4 of those are basically guaranteed hits due to your buffs. Arcane Strike is real nice, since it's basically flat damage bonus for using up your swift action. On a full attack, you probably won't be using that swift action anyways.
You can also scare the living bejeezus out of everyone with Dirge of Doom, Frightening Tune, or the Dirge Bard. Dirge Bard can even Enchant mindless undead!
I fully agree with Sean. Bards are so freaking versatile that they can fulfill almost any role. Even healing!
Here's the thing. You don't need to sing to perform. In fact, RAW you don't need to do ANYTHING to perform. You just start using your performances. It's like Rage, but helps everyone out. They're great. At level 7, you can do Inspire Courage, Haste, and Good Hope all in one round with a rod of quicken, lesser. That's something like +5 to hit, +4 damage, +2 saves, +1 extra attack on a full-attack, and +30' move speed. It's amazing. All the extra hits that hit due to your buffs are *YOUR* damage, not the fighters. Same goes for the extra attack.And you can then do anything you want later on in combat.
True this is amazing at level 7. But it's sad that 7 levels later it's still the best buff a bard can offer. APG didn't fix this, UM didn't fix this nor did UC.
Bards level 5 - 8 are REALLY funny to play. Level 8 - 11 they are still fine, but not as good. After level 13 they really start to lag. At least the core bard.The bard is a nice class, with a lot of cool stuff. Not as bad as some say, but not as good as some say, at least not at higher level.
I'm playing an Arcane Duelist now. Very nice, but I do miss bardic knowledge. So a high int score is needed if you still want to keep Bardic feeling. Int 14 would be a minimum. Amurion can aford it with the stats he rolled.
Here's the thing. You don't need to sing to perform. In fact, RAW you don't need to do ANYTHING to perform. You just start using your performances. It's like Rage, but helps everyone out. They're great. At level 7, you can do Inspire Courage, Haste, and Good Hope all in one round with a rod of quicken, lesser. That's something like +5 to hit, +4 damage, +2 saves, +1 extra attack on a full-attack, and +30' move speed. It's amazing. All the extra hits that hit due to your buffs are *YOUR* damage, not the fighters. Same goes for the extra attack.And you can then do anything you want later on in combat.
True this is amazing at level 7. But it's sad that 7 levels later it's still the best buff a bard can offer. APG didn't fix this, UM didn't fix this nor did UC.
Bards level 5 - 8 are REALLY funny to play. Level 8 - 11 they are still fine, but not as good. After level 13 they really start to lag. At least the core bard.The bard is a nice class, with a lot of cool stuff. Not as bad as some say, but not as good as some say, at least not at higher level.
I'm playing an Arcane Duelist now. Very nice, but I do miss bardic knowledge. So a high int score is needed if you still want to keep Bardic feeling. Int 14 would be a minimum. Amurion can aford it with the stats he rolled.
I have played a bard 12/spellthief 1/sublime chord 2 for about 1.5 years from level 1 through 15. It has been a blast. During the last few levels of bard (I had ST & SC) in between I realized that if I would play again I would go for pure bard since that was the stuff I really used and which was the fun part for me.
So I would say bard is fun on all levels, or at least through levels 1-15, not just 1-7 :-) Notable things that made it fun for me:- Picking a theme is important as others wrote about. I basically was primary buffer, primary healer, secondary spell caster, secondary melee fighter.
- I summoned monsters when I could to provide meatshields and flanking allies. For that I even took spellfocus conjuration and augment summoning. Especially the SF was very useful given the many conjuration spells of the bard (glitterdust or grease to name a few)
- I focused on dancing performance which benefitted acrobatics and fly checks. I boosted it as much as I could, so that I finally achieved performance 60 (including boosts from spells and items).
My DM also interpreted one of the rules from the PF book which states that at 35 performance inhabitants of other planes are getting interested in you. So whenever I achieved such a check there was a chance to be "summoned" somewhere else (will save to resist). No mechanical effects, but great for roleplaying ;-)
- Inspire courage basically evens out the lower BAB of the bard, arcane strike is a great damage booster. So you can be surprisingly effective there.
- Buffing with spells like mirror image and using acrobatics to flank (for rogues or simply for bonus to hit) is one of many useful combos.
- A bard is a great skill monkey, and almost nobody can beat it at knowledge checks.
- A bard has a full caster level and can thus take feats as soon as other full casting classes. Arcane blast or item creation feats can be of great use there.
- A bard can cast in light armor an while using a shield. That opens up the road to very decent AC.
I am looking forward to the next time playing a bard. Standard bard, arcane duelist, detective, magician, archaelogist, sandman, geisha (much better than many seem to make it out to be, just think of the prebuffing possibilities!)... It is a very cool class. :-)
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My current bard kicks rump.
The little (gnome) dude has done incredible things within the campaign - and he's only 3rd. He's recruited a tavern of would-be-adventures, negotiated fair prices for some underpaid sailors-of-fortune, led a successful strike against a barge trading company and had a well named after him.
The combination of knowledge, brains and charisma, coupled with spells like Innocence, Unseen Servant, Message, Vanish and Comprehend Languages has been fantastic.
He's very very useful and the party love him - which is a good thing since he's also incredibly self indulgent and spends most of his down time in pricey scented baths with his wooden duck.
He dresses primarily in a smoking jacket/dressing gown, boxer shorts and comfy slippers.
When asked if his a poet/artist/writer/actor he replies with 'Yeah, sure, why not!'
<3
./end LoveMyBard
*great stuff*
Cool! This is what I love about bards :-D