I've looked at this a few times and I would like to pose the following questions:
1. Why is the Rogue able to get this sooner than a Ranger? You can pick up Terrain Mastery (read: Favored Terrain) one level earlier.
2. Why is Terrain Mastery better with each iteration? Each time you take it, you add +2 to all of your favored terrains, whereas the Ranger's FT is only for 1 terrain he/she already has.
3. Why is it so stackable? You can Extra Feat for Talents on it and take it every time you get a talent, meaning you can hypothetically take it EVERY LEVEL. If you're trying to make a ridiculous Horizon Walker, this means you can easily have a "favored enemy" bonus in your Dominance terrains of +10 or, if you were focusing on this heavily, +20.
4. How do other GMs intend to deal with this?
1. the rogue needed something good.
2. the rogue REALLY needed something nice
3. I believe that such a narrow character won't be as amazing as yo think, more of a one trick pony.
4. Allow it, enjoy a strong rogue, don't let him choose the environment or he takes towns, asks to start in a metropolis, and will never ever leave it.
However don't deny him his awesome all the time, just as the ranger with his favorite ennemy.
1. the rogue needed something good.
2. the rogue REALLY needed something nice
3. I believe that such a narrow character won't be as amazing as yo think, more of a one trick pony.
4. Allow it, enjoy a strong rogue, don't let him choose the environment or he takes towns, asks to start in a metropolis, and will never ever leave it.
However don't deny him his awesome all the time, just as the ranger with his favorite ennemy.
Yes, the Rogue needed something nice. Curb-stomping the Ranger on its own ability is not exactly my definition of something nice for the Rogue.
You're correct in saying that it does make him a one trick pony...until he goes HW and starts sharing the bonuses, then gets his Dominance and begins obliterating targets. Suddenly that one trick pony has become a force multiplier for the group (I'd love +10 perception, initiative, etc. in an urban setting, or where ever the Rogue decided to get Dominance, if it was something that we knew would come up regularly).
That's the whole thing, though. It's not even that it's "something nice for the Rogue." It's a setup for Horizon Walker that is vastly superior to every other option.
okay, I read Horizon Walker a little more carefully.
Terrain Dominance could really become very deadly, and the rogue could with some feats have all 17 terrains. giving him + 34 damage and attack on his first chosen terrain, if I'm not mistaken.
That doesn't seem that bad, given that it counts only for 3 terrains max. There are worse things.
late big edit (sorry): made serious calculation error.
I've looked at this a few times and I would like to pose the following questions:
1. Why is the Rogue able to get this sooner than a Ranger?
Because you get rogue talents every even level, and most rangers probably won't lose any sleep over the fact that rogues can get one of their class abilities one level early. They still get bonus feats (some of which they can get considerably sooner than anyone else), favoured enemies, spells, hunter's bond and all that other stuff.
2. Why is Terrain Mastery better with each iteration? Each time you take it, you add +2 to all of your favored terrains, whereas the Ranger's FT is only for 1 terrain he/she already has.
I don't know. But the thing is that the rogue needs to keep spending options on it while the ranger gets it for free mitigates it.
3. Why is it so stackable? You can Extra Feat for Talents on it and take it every time you get a talent, meaning you can hypothetically take it EVERY LEVEL.
Can doesn't mean you will or should.
4. How do other GMs intend to deal with this?
I veto any ridiculous builds. I actually veto any builds at all. I only allow characters.
And if your stuff becomes too ridiculous or you do it too often, you are vetoed yourself. Out. Thanks for not playing.
I found this to be an excellent way of dealing with rules that can be abused. Don't hate the game, hate the player.
I veto any ridiculous builds. I actually veto any builds at all. I only allow characters.
And if your stuff becomes too ridiculous or you do it too often, you are vetoed yourself. Out. Thanks for not playing.
I found this to be an excellent way of dealing with rules that can be abused. Don't hate the game, hate the player.
That seems excessively harsh. I make "builds" all the time, but I only ever bring "characters" to the table. Would you kick me out or not let me play on my "builds" reputation alone?
I also don't like that you consider "build players" to not be playing. I find that the majority of roleplayers use builds of one kind or another (And why not? It's part of the fun), but roleplay the characters quite well just the same. It's not like they are mutually exclusive.
Personally, I don't use builds or characters. I use character builds. :P
This talent is unbalanced, overpowered, and frankly, bad form. Why this is not instantly obvious to anyone who reads it baffles me. Perhaps you have never played a Ranger?
This seriously needs to be errataed to only be able to be taken once, or at the very least not increase exponentially with repeated use!
This would only be good if you dont travel around that much.
Not really. Because it stacks exponentially, it's far superior to the equivalent Ranger class feature and, as stated before, it synergizes with Horizon Walker for the Terrain Dominance in the most disgusting way possible.
Yes, it is a Rogue Trick, and you do give up something for taking it, but the notion of a level 6 character with a +10 bonus for FT in one terrain, +8 in another, +6 in another, +4 in another, and +2 in yet another is nigh-offensive. 3 levels later, one of those bonuses is equivalent to Favored Enemy, as well.
If you were running a primarily city-based campaign, this may well be sufficient for all of your terrain types. This means, if you so desired, you could well have +16 to all Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth and Survival checks, +16 attack and damage, and +16 initiative in your primary terrain or against any creature that are native to that terrain.
How fair would it be to say that humanoids are native to the Urban terrain? Well, until you get to Drow, Svirfneblin, etc. that are clearly Underground and arguably Urban...
@ ThorGN: the talent is only unbalanced if the GM doesn't change areas. But hey, then favored ennemy is the most awesome class if the GM always lets you fight the same race.
Plus, the development is freaking linear! Your maximal boni is 2n, n being times you take the feat!
Even if you would take all the boni you get from every terrain together, your all in all boni isn't even 2(n^2), so a square increase. Talking about an exponential increase is like comparing apples and airplanes.
Exponential : 2^10 = 1024,
linear : 2*10 = 20
Seriously, you all discuss a rogue that takes this feat every time he can and only look what he can do in 1 area, and mainly argue about him when he takes 1 prestige class choice.
Just look at him how strong that horizon walker is, when he takes every possible terrain, and comes on his least favorable one. He will be about as strong as a rogue/fighter multiclasser, that wasted all his feats and fighter extra feats and rogue tricks.
@ ThorGN: the talent is only unbalanced if the GM doesn't change areas. But hey, then favored ennemy is the most awesome class if the GM always lets you fight the same race.
Plus, the development is freaking linear! Your maximal boni is 2n, n being times you take the feat!
Even if you would take all the boni you get from every terrain together, your all in all boni isn't even 2(n^2), so a square increase. Talking about an exponential increase is like comparing apples and airplanes.
Exponential : 2^10 = 1024,
linear : 2*10 = 20Seriously, you all discuss a rogue that takes this feat every time he can and only look what he can do in 1 area, and mainly argue about him when he takes 1 prestige class choice.
Just look at him how strong that horizon walker is, when he takes every possible terrain, and comes on his least favorable one. He will be about as strong as a rogue/fighter multiclasser, that wasted all his feats and fighter extra feats and rogue tricks.
I phrase it that way because I can actually envision people doing this and having it be "in character."
Any individual bonus is going to be a linear progression. Unlike the Ranger FT, however, each time you take it increases its total power because it increases ALL iterations you already have. It's not 16 and a bunch of 2s. It's 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2. That is my biggest problem with it. Not a true exponential increase, but certainly not linear, either. It is a curve, and in terms of PF numbers, it's pretty steep.
In your non-Dominance terrains, you still have substantial bonuses, namely to Perception, Stealth, Survival, and Initiative, as well as Knowledge: Geography (other Knowledges being covered by FE).
Keep in mind that a substantial part of the capstone for the HW is a +2 bonus to all current FTs. Yes, the ally bonus and weather effect auto-success is definitely there, but there's some absurdity in such a significant portion of the capstone of a PrC being available as a feat/talent at level 2.
Yes, the Rogue/Horizon Walker is an extreme, and broken, example. But let’s say that the Rogue only takes Terrain Mastery four times in his 20 levels, same as the Ranger. He need not spend any feats on that. So he ends up with +8/+6/+4/+2. The Ranger however ends up with something like +6/+4/+2/+2, not as good. Favored Terrain is one of those abilities that is defining for the Ranger. My beef is that all of a sudden you give the Rogue something not similar, but way better than the Ranger!
And saying that the Rogue has to give up something for it is a cop out. Favored Terrain is a class feature, same as Rogue Talents, but Rogues have the extra benefit of choice, where Rangers do not. In this area, the Rogue now outpaces the Ranger blow for blow. The possibility of extra increases just adds to the imbalance.
There are already too few reasons to play a Ranger; we don’t need to remove another one.
Yes, the Rogue/Horizon Walker is an extreme, and broken, example. But let’s say that the Rogue only takes Terrain Mastery four times in his 20 levels, same as the Ranger. He need not spend any feats on that. So he ends up with +8/+6/+4/+2. The Ranger however ends up with something like +6/+4/+2/+2, not as good. Favored Terrain is one of those abilities that is defining for the Ranger. My beef is that all of a sudden you give the Rogue something not similar, but way better than the Ranger!
And saying that the Rogue has to give up something for it is a cop out. Favored Terrain is a class feature, same as Rogue Talents, but Rogues have the extra benefit of choice, where Rangers do not. In this area, the Rogue now outpaces the Ranger blow for blow. The possibility of extra increases just adds to the imbalance.
There are already too few reasons to play a Ranger; we don’t need to remove another one.
Other than full BAB vs. 3/4 BAB, d10 HD vs. d8 HD, two good saves vs. one, favored enemy, survival as a class skill, a bonus to track, a free flanking buddy, a bunch of free feats, free camouflage, free hide in plain sight..... etc? You can make a ranger that's like a rogue, or a rogue that's like a ranger, but each has it's own strengths, weaknesses, and specialties and a "pure" version of each will be better than the one trying to imitate the other. While I agree that the rogue's version of FT shouldn't progress like it does, calling it a reason not to play a ranger is a bit overboard at best, and hyperbole at its finest..
Why would the rogue's Terrain Mastery work in tandem with the Horizon Walker? Especially when the Horizon Walker's Mastery and Dominance abilities work specifically with Favored Terrain.
Terrain Mastery is LIKE Favored Terrain, but it is not the same. And thus would not stack or qualify with or as Favored Terrain. You would simply take the higher bonus (from either Terrain Mastery or Favored Terrain.)
You, sir, are incorrect. Terrain Mastery gives you a Favored Terrain, not a look-alike with a different name.
@InsaneFox
So by your logic a rogue with the weapon training talent doesnt actually gain the actual feat: weapon focus?
Weapon Training: A rogue that selects this talent gains
Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.
dang i hope no one was using that to qualify for other things.
Terrain Mastery (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a favored
terrain as the ranger ability of the same name, though the
favored terrain ability does not increase with her level as the
ranger’s ability does. A rogue can take this ability multiple
times, each time applying it to a new terrain, and granting
all other favored terrains a +2 increase to the favored terrain
bonus.
I think it would work as it says in teh discription you gain the actual ranger class feature.
Im guessing they should just errata the talents names to the features they bestow so we have clarification.
such as
Finesse Rogue: A rogue that selects this talent gains
Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.
Should just be apart of
Bonus Combat feat(talent): A rogue that selects this talent gains a bonus feat from this list. Weapon focus, weapon finesse, etc. This talent can be taken multiple times but each time he must select a different feat from the list.
Do they grant the same type of bonus? Because if they grant different bonuses, or untyped bonuses, then they WOULD stack, being different (but similar) abilities.
No. I'm right.
You gain the benefits of a favored terrain just as a ranger does, but it doesn't function EXACTLY like the ranger ability. Furthermore, just because you gain a favored terrain, doesn't mean you have the class feature named Favored Terrain. Your class feature is named Terrain Mastery. It's likely named that for a reason so it couldn't be exploited as aformentioned in this thread. Terrain Mastery does not qualify for the Horizion Walker's Terrain Mastery/Dominance, nor would it even stack with the Ranger/HW's Favored Terrain ability.
EDIT: If it functioned just like the ranger's Favored Terrain ability, and stacked with it, it would have said so, just as it says so in the Horizion Walker's version of Favored Terrain.
EDIT2: I will meet you halfway though, I suppose since it grants a favored terrain, it would technically qualify for Mastery/Dominance, but it still wouldn't stack with the Ranger/HW version of favored terrain, the way the two abilites allocate bonuses are different.
I think we need to make a distinction here in the writing. The Ranger's Favored Terrain ability was written at a point in which no other class or prestige class could obtain it. Let's look at the HW quick:
Note the bolded portion. The way the Ranger is written, you certainly would not increase an existing Favored Terrain at level 3 as it does not have the condition for level 3. However, it would appear that the HW and the Ranger would increase a Terrain Mastery-based Favored Terrain, on the assumption that we're talking about level 8 and up on the Ranger.
This is awesome.
Now i only need a couple of HW levels and rogues rock.
Take THAT mister ninja!
There is also the warden archtype for ranger that gets favored terrain at level 1.Might want to take 1 level of warden ranger on this rouge horizon walker to get all martial weapons and a larger bump to fortitude and reflex saves.
I have a less selfish idea that could be redicoulous combine 4 levels the guide archtype with a terrain mastery rouge to make an always go first for the entire party with the huge initiative bonus.