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Looking at the Unarmed Fighter Archetype in Ultimate Combat, I came across an ability I wasn't sure I was reading right.
Tough Guy (Ex): At 3rd level, an unarmed fighter gains DR/— equal to half his fighter level against nonlethal damage or damage taken while he is grappled.
If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices).
Does this mean that the Unarmed Fighter has DR any time that he has his mitts on someone? That is to say, does he gain DR when he initiates a grapple, or is it only when he is the recipient of a grapple?
If it's the former, as I'm reading it, that's a pretty compelling reason to give this archetype a try, no?
Even if you ruled it in the most favorable way, that DR is not going to make much of a difference at all.
Even if you ruled it in the most favorable way, that DR is not going to make much of a difference at all.
How do you figure? Fighters normally gain DR 5/- at level 19. Having small DR at early levels, DR 5/- at level 10, and DR 10/- at level 20 seems a pretty substantial boost.
Of course, you lose out on plenty of other things fighters typically have (damage, AC, etc), so I don't think it's in any way overpowered, but it seems pretty nice for a level 3 class ability to me.
Bump. I'd still love to hear what others have to say on this. I don't want to build a character thinking one way and then have the community consensus come down on the other side of the issue.
I'm not certain but I think the intent was for the fighter to have DR against anyone he was actively in a grapple with, regardless of who initiated the grapple.
This would mean that he doesn't get DR against the attacks of someone standing next to him and his grapple opponent, just vs the creature(s) he is grappling with.
Does this mean that the Unarmed Fighter has DR any time that he has his mitts on someone? That is to say, does he gain DR when he initiates a grapple, or is it only when he is the recipient of a grapple?If it's the former, as I'm reading it, that's a pretty compelling reason to give this archetype a try, no?
By the actual wording:
damage taken while he is grappled.Means only while grappling. But from anyone attacking him (incliding person he grapples with).
So grappling with people gives you DR. And since you can freely attack others while grappling (with -2 hit penalty with 1 handed) you should bring someone to grapple with and both move toward enemy.
Does this mean that the Unarmed Fighter has DR any time that he has his mitts on someone? That is to say, does he gain DR when he initiates a grapple, or is it only when he is the recipient of a grapple?If it's the former, as I'm reading it, that's a pretty compelling reason to give this archetype a try, no?
By the actual wording:
damage taken while he is grappled.Means only while grappling. But from anyone attacking him (incliding person he grapples with).
So grappling with people gives you DR. And since you can freely attack others while grappling (with -2 hit penalty with 1 handed) you should bring someone to grapple with and both move toward enemy.
That's the RAW ruling for sure but I don't think it was the intention. Will probably get Errata in the near future.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Does this mean that the Unarmed Fighter has DR any time that he has his mitts on someone? That is to say, does he gain DR when he initiates a grapple, or is it only when he is the recipient of a grapple?If it's the former, as I'm reading it, that's a pretty compelling reason to give this archetype a try, no?
By the actual wording:
damage taken while he is grappled.Means only while grappling. But from anyone attacking him (incliding person he grapples with).
So grappling with people gives you DR. And since you can freely attack others while grappling (with -2 hit penalty with 1 handed) you should bring someone to grapple with and both move toward enemy.
In order to move while grappling someone, you need to make a grapple check, which is a standard action, which precludes attacking. Even if you have Greater Grapple, it's a move action to make the grapple check, but then you'd have to spend your move action to actually move. You can't 5-foot step because your movement is halved while using a grapple check to move your grappled foe.
If you are the target of the grapple, of course, you could have someone else spend their round grappling you and carrying you around so you could get DR, but I'm not sure that's the most efficient use of party actions, even if it's your animal companion or cohort. It's a good deal for you, not so much for them. You could go for cheese and have your familiar grapple you, despite its size, though your GM is free to call shenanigans.
As for the intentionality of the ability, yes, it was purely intentional. It was intended to encourage you to enter grapples youself, and to give you a measure of protection when you are being grappled by others. You are the king-poobah of brawlers and you should be in there mixing it up; though grappling isn't necessarily your super-deluxe specialty, you can be plenty good at it and you can be ready to deal with others who use that tactic as well.
TL;DR: In PF, both creatures in a grapple have the grappled condition, so whether you or the other guy started the grapple, you are considered "grappled" either way, and the DR applies against ANY ATTACKS that happen while you're grappled (as long as DR applies, of course).
I'm not certain but I think the intent was for the fighter to have DR against anyone he was actively in a grapple with, regardless of who initiated the grapple.
This would mean that he doesn't get DR against the attacks of someone standing next to him and his grapple opponent, just vs the creature(s) he is grappling with.
I can definitely see that reading of the "intent" of the ability/class, but in our play group we were discussing and think that the DR could be made to make sense in a "human shield" sort of way. That is to say, while grappling, the Unarmed Fighter is proficient at throwing his enemy in the way of attacks, granting him minimal DR against incoming attacks from any enemy.
Whether or not it gets errata'd, though, it sounds like folks are in agreement that the RAW reading is that the class gets DR whenever they are in a grapple... so that's good.
As for the intentionality of the ability, yes, it was purely intentional. It was intended to encourage you to enter grapples youself, and to give you a measure of protection when you are being grappled by others. You are the king-poobah of brawlers and you should be in there mixing it up; though grappling isn't necessarily your super-deluxe specialty, you can be plenty good at it and you can be ready to deal with others who use that tactic as well.
Excellent. That's what I was thinking/hoping, but it's always good to make sure I'm not off my rocker with a given reading.