
![]() |

I am thinking of doing "the ninja thing" for my first ever AP serpents skull, I have ultimate combat and I like the rogue knife master archetype
I am a little confused I know the ninja is an "alternate class" for the rouge so can I also take the knife master archetype for my ninja class?
Nope. The Knife Master replaces Trapfinding and Trap Sense which are not abilities the Ninja possesses.
EDIT: I think, in theory, you could take the Ninja and a Rogue archetype, if there was one that only replaced features the Rogue or Ninja had in comon. Which is basically Sneak Attack.

submit2me |

Nope. The Knife Master replaces Trapfinding and Trap Sense which are not abilities the Ninja possesses.
EDIT: I think, in theory, you could take the Ninja and a Rogue archetype, if there was one that only replaced features the Rogue or Ninja had in common. Which is basically Sneak Attack.
While I do agree with you 100% on this matter, I feel that if the GM approves of it then he could switch out the same level abilities. So instead of replacing Trapfinding and Trap Sense for the Knife Master archetype, he replaces Poison Use and No Trace. For something like PFS, though, of course this would never work.

Lobolusk |

seekerofshadowlight wrote:I'm of the opinion that a ninja can take none of these since the ninja is not a rogue.Ok it seems ninja 's can take
Bandit
Burglar
Sanctified Rogue
Scout
Trapsmith
I can see your argument quite clearly, actually but you can also say that the ninja is a rogue alternate class and therefore a rogue? i guess it depends on where you fall. think maybe the devs can clear this up?
I could care less either way will not make me throw my fist up to the heavens like some charlton Heston on a beach if i can be a knife master

![]() |

If the alternates had their own archetypes, i think it would be a clear answer, but since they don't, it does seems like something that needs to be clarified.
I'd like to protest with an exemple taken from the new Ultimate Combat:
"KNIGHT OF THE SEPULCHER
(ARCHETYPE)
The knight of the sepulcher archetype is available only
to the antipaladin alternate class."
So they DO get archetypes...

Lobolusk |

chrids wrote:If the alternates had their own archetypes, i think it would be a clear answer, but since they don't, it does seems like something that needs to be clarified.
I'd like to protest with an exemple taken from the new Ultimate Combat:
"KNIGHT OF THE SEPULCHER
(ARCHETYPE)
The knight of the sepulcher archetype is available only
to the antipaladin alternate class."So they DO get archetypes...
you may of solved it !

chrids |

Darkorin wrote:you may of solved it !chrids wrote:If the alternates had their own archetypes, i think it would be a clear answer, but since they don't, it does seems like something that needs to be clarified.
I'd like to protest with an exemple taken from the new Ultimate Combat:
"KNIGHT OF THE SEPULCHER
(ARCHETYPE)
The knight of the sepulcher archetype is available only
to the antipaladin alternate class."So they DO get archetypes...
I agree!

Anburaid |

I think the the Knight of the Sepulcher means that alternate classes can have their own archetypes, BUT its still possible for a ninja to take a rogue archetype if it swaps the abilities that both rogues and ninja have in common, which is to say, sneak attack or uncanny dodge.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.

seekerofshadowlight |

The issue with the Anti-paladin is it can NOT have paladin archetypes. It leaves no ablties untouched, so it has none to swap. Then it is the evil version so evil archetypes will work off it as paladin's have none of the features it swaps.
The Ninja is a rogue, it leaves some rogue features untouched. Those may be swapped.

frakeer |
Has this been updated in another FAQ somewhere?
It seems everyone here that is trying to apply RAW to this are confusing the rule for a class qualifying for an archetype with the rule for applying multiple archetypes to a class.
Ninja's are a class that operates exactly as a Rogue class, save that a character who takes a level in the ninja class can never take a level in the rogue class.
Just as the ninja class is the rogue class spelled with different letters, so too are all the ninja class features just rogue class features... differently worded.
The idea Submit2me put forth is closer to RAW than saying "no" to all but 2 archetypes. All the Ninja class features are granted at the same intervals as the Rogues with one exception, Light Step. If you just assign a number to each class feature at the level they are granted and have the archetype affect the #_ class feature, there would be no problem.
None of the Pathfinder Rogue archetypes, that I could see at a glance, would break any game mechanics if applied to a ninja. It makes me sad that no one will play a ninja just because they think they are so rigidly controlled.
As for the Light Step issue I would either group it with "no trace" and have the "light Step" ability unlock at lvl6 or call it the cost of taking an archetype. "... while you were becoming a knife master, you missed the lesson on water walking." Regardless of how the GM solves that small issue, There are no rules written (that I have come across) that says that a class must have the class feature(s) an archetype (that can only be applied to that class) must change/replace. It does say that the character must take them all and that other archetypes cannot overlap with its class features.
After all... RAW does not stand for rules as implied. Personally I would allow (and encourage) this.
The ninja is a re-written rogue. In my book ALL the rules for rogue get re-written... including its archetypes.

![]() |

Unfortunately there's now confusion surrounding what exactly the Ninja is.
For many years people thought it was just an extensive archetype of the Rogue. Some developer commentary even confirmed this. You could apply favored class bonuses for Rogue to Ninja, you couldn't multiclass the two, and any other archetypes (like Scout) that didn't conflict with Ninja could still be options.
But after Unchained was released there were some conflicting comments by a Developer about the inability to retrain Ninjas into Unchained Rogues because Ninjas weren't an archetype of Rogue after all.
To my knowledge, those comments were never followed up on. Many PFS Ninjas were left unable to retrain (and still cannot).
Getting that clarified once and for all would be nice, since I am currently leveling up a Ninja that would like to take Scout at 4th level.

frakeer |
I suppose everything can't get fixed at once. :D
I don't see how they could have been any more concise than the current explanation of an alternate class. It says it is a class and it says it has the same mechanics of its base class.
To me, it doesn't seem like the question is "should we be able to apply Rogue archetypes to a ninja"... we should be asking how can we make it happen.
Is this a RPG or what? :)