Was watching LoTR I remember how that Orc leader used those freakishly large arrows with a normal sized bow toward the end of Fellowship of the Ring. So I am wondering if it is possible within the RAW to use oversized arrows with a Composite Bow. If it is possible I do understand that their would be a -2 penalty.
Was watching LoTR I remember how that Orc leader used those freakishly large arrows with a normal sized bow toward the end of Fellowship of the Ring. So I am wondering if it is possible within the RAW to use oversized arrows with a Composite Bow. If it is possible I do understand that their would be a -2 penalty.
Ehhhh... I think they were supposed to be scaled to the Urak-hai that was shooting them. Peter Jackson did a lot of forced perspective and scale tricks to insinuate size...
But regardless, those were MASSIVE arrows... but they didn't seem to DO much more for damage. Boramir still took HOW many before falling?
I don't think I'd go out of my way to seek out penalties for something that seems like 'fluff.'
Was watching LoTR I remember how that Orc leader used those freakishly large arrows with a normal sized bow toward the end of Fellowship of the Ring. So I am wondering if it is possible within the RAW to use oversized arrows with a Composite Bow. If it is possible I do understand that their would be a -2 penalty.Ehhhh... I think they were supposed to be scaled to the Urak-hai that was shooting them. Peter Jackson did a lot of forced perspective and scale tricks to insinuate size...
But regardless, those were MASSIVE arrows... but they didn't seem to DO much more for damage. Boramir still took HOW many before falling?
I don't think I'd go out of my way to seek out penalties for something that seems like 'fluff.'
Don't get me wrong I know the size was fluff in the movie, but I am just wondering if it would be possible for an archer build.
I would expect that, realistically, merely scaling the arrows wouldn't do much to change damage potential. The bow still imparts the same amount of force to the arrow, so the arrow hits just as hard. You do get a bigger entry wound, but probably less penetration. It's not like a melee weapon where you can use additional effort to swing heavier weapons and take advantage of lever effects so bigger weapons hit harder.
I would expect that, realistically, merely scaling the arrows wouldn't do much to change damage potential. The bow still imparts the same amount of force to the arrow, so the arrow hits just as hard. You do get a bigger entry wound, but probably less penetration. It's not like a melee weapon where you can use additional effort to swing heavier weapons and take advantage of lever effects so bigger weapons hit harder.
As much as I hate to mix magic with physics that pretty much it.
For the rules-as-written answer, arrows don't have a damage entry because as far as the rules are concerned it's the bow that's doing the damage.
If you did this in my game (say you ran out of ammo in the giant's castle), I would apply a -2 circumstance penalty for using the wrong sized ammunition and you'd get no bonus.
Although, if you used the arrow as an improvised weapon, then you would get extra damage (1d6 vs. 1d4).
For the rules-as-written answer, arrows don't have a damage entry because as far as the rules are concerned it's the bow that's doing the damage.
Indeed.
If you did this in my game (say you ran out of ammo in the giant's castle), I would apply a -2 circumstance penalty for using the wrong sized ammunition and you'd get no bonus.
Does ammunition also follow the sizing rules for weapons? Cloudy answer, but probably yes.
So while I can't be 100% certain, I'd rule as Tim would.
I would expect that, realistically, merely scaling the arrows wouldn't do much to change damage potential. The bow still imparts the same amount of force to the arrow, so the arrow hits just as hard. You do get a bigger entry wound, but probably less penetration. It's not like a melee weapon where you can use additional effort to swing heavier weapons and take advantage of lever effects so bigger weapons hit harder.As much as I hate to mix magic with physics that pretty much it.
For the rules-as-written answer, arrows don't have a damage entry because as far as the rules are concerned it's the bow that's doing the damage.
If you did this in my game (say you ran out of ammo in the giant's castle), I would apply a -2 circumstance penalty for using the wrong sized ammunition and you'd get no bonus.
Although, if you used the arrow as an improvised weapon, then you would get extra damage (1d6 vs. 1d4).
OK, so if arrows really have no damage entry then the damage comes from the force of the bow and not the arrow it's self. Following this line of logic then, as per RAW, and enlarge spell would effect the damage dice of a bow or crossbow or whatever since it has been stated the the size of the arrow is immaterial.
However, if you read the description of the gravity bow spell as it makes reference that the damage is done by the weight and density of the arrow being effected.
I really feel like there is some kind of conflict going on in this discussion when you read the spell description and what has been said.
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(Martial) Ammunition Cost Dmg (S) Dmg (M) crit
Arrow(s), common (20) 1 gp — — — — 3 lbs. P — CRB
well lets see, a small arrow does - damage. and a medium arrow does - damage, so if you scale up - you get -
arrows don't deal damage. they impart the bows damage. apparantly.
oversized arrows could be considered improvised, and give a -2 to hit, but thats about it
I would expect that, realistically, merely scaling the arrows wouldn't do much to change damage potential. The bow still imparts the same amount of force to the arrow, so the arrow hits just as hard. You do get a bigger entry wound, but probably less penetration. It's not like a melee weapon where you can use additional effort to swing heavier weapons and take advantage of lever effects so bigger weapons hit harder.As much as I hate to mix magic with physics that pretty much it.
For the rules-as-written answer, arrows don't have a damage entry because as far as the rules are concerned it's the bow that's doing the damage.
If you did this in my game (say you ran out of ammo in the giant's castle), I would apply a -2 circumstance penalty for using the wrong sized ammunition and you'd get no bonus.
Although, if you used the arrow as an improvised weapon, then you would get extra damage (1d6 vs. 1d4).
OK, so if arrows really have no damage entry then the damage comes from the force of the bow and not the arrow it's self. Following this line of logic then, as per RAW, and enlarge spell would effect the damage dice of a bow or crossbow or whatever since it has been stated the the size of the arrow is immaterial.
However, if you read the description of the gravity bow spell as it makes reference that the damage is done by the weight and density of the arrow being effected.
I really feel like there is some kind of conflict going on in this discussion when you read the spell description and what has been said.
MUNDANE EXAMPLE: Firing a large arrow from a medium bow.
F=MA. The bow always imparts the same force. A medium arrow has a lower mass, so it has a higher acceleration. When it hits, that higher acceleration means it hits with roughly as much force as the bow imparted, less what it lost to friction. A large arrow has a higher mass and lower velocity, so when it hits its acceleration is lower, but force is still the same since mass is higher.
MAGIC EXAMPLE: Firing an enlarged arrow from an enlarged bow.
F=MA. The larger bow imparts a higher force. Since the larger arrow has a higher mass, it accelerates at roughly the same rate as a medium arrow from a medium bow. As soon as it leaves the bow, it drops down to medium size, decreasing its mass. However, its velocity remains the same. So, when it hits, it hits with as much force as an arrow fired from a medium bow as it has "size proper" velocity and medium mass.
This is why we don't mix magic and physics. Because you just made me destroy matter.
OK, so if arrows really have no damage entry then the damage comes from the force of the bow and not the arrow it's self. Following this line of logic then, as per RAW, and enlarge spell would effect the damage dice of a bow or crossbow or whatever since it has been stated the the size of the arrow is immaterial.However, if you read the description of the gravity bow spell as it makes reference that the damage is done by the weight and density of the arrow being effected.
As for the gravity bow, read the text:
Gravity bow significantly increases the weight and density of arrows or bolts fired from your bow or crossbow the instant before they strike their target and ...
Let's go for some simple physics right here. Energy is conservated and in the bow, we have it stored as elastic energy which is determined by the string and wood and then transfered into kinetic energy.
What arrows do is:- being aerodynamic and thus reducing loss of energy to the air
- being pointy, focusing the energy on one point
- having some other nasty effects like hooks that rip flesh when you want to draw it out of the body (and spells)
If we care for the physics, it's basically the bow that matters tough good arrows can provide. As for oversized arrows, they are LESS good since they offer more resistance to the air and are probably less pointy. What they do are being more stable which is nice if you want to crush fortifications, also they don't need to speed up that much for the same energy (put a regular arrow in a ballista and it will rip in mid air by the high speed)
As for the rules:
- arrows can be build good, aerodynamic and stuff, I'd give a small bonus on that (special arrows -> warheads)
- but basically they are not responsible for the damage
- arrows have to fit to the bow (different real world bows need different lengths of arrows for example but let's assume we've got a standard on golarion on medium sized arrows) or they will fly HORRIBLE (no bonus, attack and damage malus) (enlarged bows need enlarged arrows, enlarged arrows on regular bows don't even fit on the string)
-gravity bow is magics and thus to ignore - in our physics, it actually adds energy by increasing the mass while keeping the velocity
If someone wants to play the Dakka-Crossbower with a ballista in hand, well ask your DM, do it.