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Can you use an Orange Ioun Stone (+1 Caster Level) to qualify for feats?
Example:
Craft feats state a requirement of X caster level.
Can a 10th level wizard pick up Craft Staff for his 10th level metamagic or craft bonus feat?
Can a PC that has 3 levels in fighter and 4 levels in wizard that has the orange Ioun stone pick up carft wand at his 7th level (only 4th level wizard but +1 Caster Level due to the Ioun stone)
Can you use an Orange Ioun Stone (+1 Caster Level) to qualify for feats?
IMHO, yes, since you can use magic items to qualify for other kinds of feats. You'd lose access to the feat if the item was removed and you no longer qualified though.
Wearing it all the time is not an issue, even if you say you cannot. For 500gp you can buy a wayfinder and put one ioun stone in it and put it in your pocket. It acts as if it is flying around your head.
I have heard both arguments for and against.
The against is that thing that boost caste level only pertain to when you cast a spell that your caster level is counted one level higher.
Then the other argument is that the Ioun stone just says "+1 Caster Level" Not +1 caster level when casting spells.
Does anybody know if any devs have chimed in on this issue.
Please hit the faq button to expediate an answer.
Thank you!
Anybody of the opinion that it would not let you qualify for the feat?
Please Developers chime in. I really need an official ruling on this!
I am. the permanent bonus rule was made mainly for the attribute stat increasing items. I'm of the strict school that believes the rule was not meant to be expanded to ioun stones.Anybody of the opinion that it would not let you qualify for the feat?
Please Developers chime in. I really need an official ruling on this!
Is there any rules text which can be interpreted that way, or is this just an ex nihilo house rule to fix the logic? I agree that it's definitely a weird thought, but I don't even know where to start looking to see what the RAW says.
Is there any rules text which can be interpreted that way, or is this just an ex nihilo house rule to fix the logic? I agree that it's definitely a weird thought, but I don't even know where to start looking to see what the RAW says.
Ability score modifiers are discussed in the Glossary
The rules are silent on non ability score modifiers.
As a practical matter, an orange Ioun Stone costs 30k. Looking at the WLB guidelines, a 7th level char shouldn't have one (back to the OP), an 8th level character would have to devote nearly all his wealth to a single item, and 10th level character would spend 1/2. At 11th level and above, it is moot since they'd qualify for all crafting feats anyway (multi-classing issues aside).
Honestly, if someone wants to spend that much coin to get a feat one level early, at the expense of everything else, I'd probably allow it. They will likely lack the cash to use it much anyway.
The Ioun stone does let you increase the CL of the spells placed in the crafted items, so I don't see why it shouldn't help you get the feat in the first place.
Is there any rules text which can be interpreted that way, or is this just an ex nihilo house rule to fix the logic? I agree that it's definitely a weird thought, but I don't even know where to start looking to see what the RAW says.Ability score modifiers are discussed in the Glossary
The rules are silent on non ability score modifiers.
Thank you. After reading it, I agree that a strict reading won't allow it, but I also think that it's unlikely anything would break if you did allow it.
What is this 24 hour rule you guys are talking about?
I've never heard of it, and it sounds broken.
Give me a page number
In regards to the original question, if I allowed it at all, I would rule that you'd have to use the stone continuously for an entire level since you don't learn a new feat with the snap of a finger. Feats and skills are gained over time in bits and pieces.
24 Hour Rule for Stats
"...Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
What is this 24 hour rule you guys are talking about?
I've never heard of it, and it sounds broken.
Give me a page number
In is in the glossary, see the link in my earlier post.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability.
I that case, the 24 hour rule wouldn't even apply here since we're talking about a level boost.
Then comes the argument of whether or not a magic item with an ongoing effect actually conveys a "duration". I don't think it does. And if it did, it would be totally broken. There would be entire industries of Girdle of Giant Strength rentals.
Oh yeah Gen Con... I almost forgot about GenCon. Will have to bump this thread after the Con to get the devs opinion.
Here is the rub.
Can a wizard with an organe ioun stone pick up craft staff at 10th level then pick up Staff Like Wand at 11th.
Doing this saves a TON of money. A wand of magic missle 9th level goes from 6,750 down to 750. A wand of fireball 10th level goes from 22,500 to 11,250. A wand of scorching ray 11th level goes from 16,500 down to 4,500.
If the mage in question bought the minimum level version of those wands he can use them as effective as the 11th level version but saved 29,250 on the cost of his wands. With just that the orange ioun stone pays for itself.
The money spent on the orange ioun stone makes up for itself VERY quickly.
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I that case, the 24 hour rule wouldn't even apply here since we're talking about a level boost.
Then comes the argument of whether or not a magic item with an ongoing effect actually conveys a "duration". I don't think it does. And if it did, it would be totally broken. There would be entire industries of Girdle of Giant Strength rentals.
As you say, the 24-hour rule doesn't apply here.
However, if you had 11 Str and used a Belt of Giant Strength +2 you could qualify for power attack after 24 hours. There is a disadvantage in that if you lose that bonus and drop below 13 strength, you lose access to the feat until you raise your ability score again.
You don't really have to worry about the "rental" situation since they lose access if they lose the ability score. The worst case scenario is that a barbarian does it to gain access to a feat that requires just a bit more Str or Con, then uses that feat only when raging. This is minor, IMO, and doesn't bother me at all.
Once you take off the item you loose access to the Feat, but not the feat itself. [I have not found a Feat chain that does not inlcude the original Stat requirement in subsequent Feat requirements (Watch out for differences between the Feat table and their listings).
For the rental thing I mean this:
Let's say I have a girdle of Giant Strength +2
I wear it for 24 hours and get the Permanent +2 to STR
I give it to another party member and her wears it for 24 hours
and so on down the line.
A slave trader with a Girdle of Giant Strength could potentially make a fortune by selling a slew of slaves with +2 STR.
The only way I can see it being balanced would be if the magic item lost its power afterwards.
For the rental thing I mean this:
Let's say I have a girdle of Giant Strength +2
I wear it for 24 hours and get the Permanent +2 to STR
I give it to another party member and her wears it for 24 hours
and so on down the line.A slave trader with a Girdle of Giant Strength could potentially make a fortune by selling a slew of slaves with +2 STR.
The only way I can see it being balanced would be if the magic item lost its power afterwards.
It is "Permanent" in the sense that it counts as altering your stats. It is still tied to the item and disappears when removed.
Can a wizard with an organe ioun stone pick up craft staff at 10th level then pick up Staff Like Wand at 11th.
If we were playing the game starting at 10th level or below, and actually adventuring through the levels in question, I'd say go for it. If he can acquire enough wealth and be effective for several levels that way, then he's earned the right.
If we started at 11th level or above, and the player said that he bought the stone at 10th level, and this is how the feats played out, then I'd say no. Successfully running a character with 1/2 his wealth in a magic item that just adds +1 CL is going to be difficult (limited AC/Saves/Int boost, etc). That's borderline on the WLB equipment suggestion, and I'd want him to suffer for it if he plans to game the system later.
My solution would be to disallow having the stone at 10th level with 11+ builds, not forbid using magic items to allow you to qualify for feats.
My solution would be to disallow having the stone at 10th level with 11+ builds, not forbid using magic items to allow you to qualify for feats.
Sounds right to me, from a GM perspective. Not RAW, but RAP (rules-as-played).
My solution would be to disallow having the stone at 10th level with 11+ builds, not forbid using magic items to allow you to qualify for feats.
Also note, gaming the system like this only provides an unusual benefit for two levels (11th and 12th). At 13th level, he'd have craft staff and spell-like wand "naturally".
This seems like a strange corner case for someone trying to build an 11th or 12th level character and leaning on some cheese. Problem solved with no ioun stone available at 10th level.
Any developer want to throw there two cents in?
Unless you are still recovering from GenCon and still sleeping off the con. hahaha