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The Massive Weapons ability of the titan mauler archetype allows you to reduce the penalties of inappropriately sized weapons by 1 for every 3 barbarian levels you have.
Problem with this: there is no way to actually wield a larger weapon than you normally can within the rules while this archetype seems like it is built to do so.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
Is this an error as this ability pretty much becomes pointless after level 6, unless you're trying to wield a Huge sized short sword or something like that? Am I missing something? Did the devs miss something? Am I insane for thinking that this archetype seems to be designed so that barbs can wield stupid large weapons but can't actually do that?
EDIT: My suggestion is to change the Jotungrip ability to the following:
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to reduce the effort it takes to use a weapon by one step with a -2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. For example, a Medium creature could wield a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon, a Large two-handed weapon as a Medium two-handed weapon or a Huge light weapon as a Medium two-handed weapon.
Then change Massive Weapons to be able to reduce the penalties gained by Jotungrip. Good/bad idea? It would give a reason for the Massive Weapons ability to progress beyond level 6, especially when looking at the reduction of 6 gained by level 18. A Huge light weapon with the suggested Jotungrip change would have a -6 penalty to be wielded as a 2H weapon (-2 for Jotungrp, -4 for the 2 size category difference).
I think the whole point with this archetype is that it ignores this rule. it would be my understanding.
I think the whole point with this archetype is that it ignores this rule. it would be my understanding.
That's what I thought, but there's nothing in the archetype write-up that allows you to ignore the rule, or even bend it a lil' without DM adjudication.
there is no way to actually wield a larger weapon than you normally can within the rules while this archetype seems like it is built to do so.
Er, sure there is. You quoted the rules about it.
A Medium creature can wield a Large longsword in two hands with a -2 penalty, or a huge dagger at -4.
So it looks like there's no real benefit past level 12, but it leaves room open for future expansion. Maybe a feat that reduces the size adjustment for oversize weapons by one step, maybe with extra penalties, something like that. That would let people play the huge-sword anime character, and with extra penalties let this archetype ability do more at higher levels.
-edit-
weird, your edits vanish when the reply window isn't open...
Er, sure there is. You quoted the rules about it.
A Medium creature can wield a Large longsword in two hands with a -2 penalty, or a huge dagger at -4.
Well, since you can "normally" wield those weapons within the rules, my statement still stands. ;)
Hopefully they are planning something of the sort that you suggested to synergize with this archetype so that having the ability past level 12 has a point.
EDIT: My suggestion is to change the Jotungrip ability to the following:
Jotungrip Suggested Change wrote:
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to reduce the effort it takes to use a weapon by one step with a -2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. For example, a Medium creature could wield a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon, a Large two-handed weapon as a Medium two-handed weapon or a Huge light weapon as a Medium two-handed weapon.
Then change Massive Weapons to be able to reduce the penalties gained by Jotungrip. Good/bad idea? It would give a reason for the Massive Weapons ability to progress beyond level 6, especially when looking at the reduction of 6 gained by level 18. A Huge light weapon with the suggested Jotungrip change would have a -6 penalty to be wielded as a 2H weapon (-2 for Jotungrp, -4 for the 2 size category difference).
(This is so that the edit from above can be seen without clicking Reply. Silly bugs.)
The actual text of Jotungrip
Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
If I can wield medium-sized two-handed weapon in one hand, by the already established rules, shouldn't I be able to wield a Large-sized two-handed weapon in two hands?
The actual text of Jotungrip
Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
If I can wield medium-sized two-handed weapon in one hand, by the already established rules, shouldn't I be able to wield a Large-sized two-handed weapon in two hands?
That might have been the intent, however by the text that's not how it works. The ability only lets you wield an appropriately sized two-handed weapon in one hand at a -2 penalty. Nothing else.
One doesn't necessarily prevent the other. That text is simply to prevent people from thinking you could wield Large two-handed weapons in one hand, while making sure it wasn't confused with the rule that states that you can already wield a Small two-handed weapon in one hand.
Not the clearest written, but it doesn't take too much of an interpretation to figure out that that is likely its intent. Sadly, it means that you could only ever wield Large weapons, as much fun as a Huge greatsword would be.
Though I could see it being fun for a half-giant, especially when you add in Enlarge Person.
I don't think that the core rules for wielding larger weapons are suited to practical use anyway. It takes all the fun out of using a big weapon, if that's your shtick. I mean, martial classes being so overpowered and all, I can see why they wrote it that way. 9_9;
Besides, I wouldn't want to use huge two-handed weapons, large is plenty big enough. Picking up a huge weapon to use in battle outside of desperate measures reeks of cheese. Large weapons smell less like cheese and more like... something else.
You know, I wondered why the iconic barbarian used a large bastard sword, but now I realize that it's only because she can take a feat to make it a one-handed weapon. It deals 2d8+1.5x Str and it's still sub-optimal. She's trading -2 to-hit for an extra +2 average damage, and is spending a feat to do so. She could have just taken a greatsword and taken power attack for a -1 to-hit and a +3 to damage.
Doesn't seem fair.
I don't think that the core rules for wielding larger weapons are suited to practical use anyway. It takes all the fun out of using a big weapon, if that's your shtick. I mean, martial classes being so overpowered and all, I can see why they wrote it that way. 9_9;
Besides, I wouldn't want to use huge two-handed weapons, large is plenty big enough. Picking up a huge weapon to use in battle outside of desperate measures reeks of cheese. Large weapons smell less like cheese and more like... something else.
You know, I wondered why the iconic barbarian used a large bastard sword, but now I realize that it's only because she can take a feat to make it a one-handed weapon. It deals 2d8+1.5x Str and it's still sub-optimal. She's trading -2 to-hit for an extra +2 average damage, and is spending a feat to do so. She could have just taken a greatsword and taken power attack for a -1 to-hit and a +3 to damage.
Doesn't seem fair.
You know it may seem sub-par however it is the dice being used that is the important thing. If you enlarged the iconic barbarian with the stats you have guessed at then that 2d8+1.5x str then becomes a 3d8+1.5x str.
I keep picturing a dip or two of metal oracle to go with this barbarian archetype. Imagine such a character using an over-sized keen elven curved blade who then casts lead blades while a buddy arcane casts enlarge person.
1d10 becomes a 2d8 (over-sized) which becomes a 3d8 (lead blades) which then becomes a 4d8 (enlarge person).
Imagine such a character using an over-sized keen elven curved blade who then casts lead blades while a buddy arcane casts enlarge person.
The elven curve blade is two-handed, so you can't wield one that is larger than you.
The reason it works with Amiri's large bastard sword is because it's a one-handed exotic weapon, so she can use it in two hands at penalty.
A Medium Jotungripping barbarian could wield a medium curve blade in one hand. That does not allow her to wield a large longsword in one hand.
You know, I wondered why the iconic barbarian used a large bastard sword, but now I realize that it's only because she can take a feat to make it a one-handed weapon. It deals 2d8+1.5x Str and it's still sub-optimal. She's trading -2 to-hit for an extra +2 average damage, and is spending a feat to do so. She could have just taken a greatsword and taken power attack for a -1 to-hit and a +3 to damage.
Doesn't seem fair.
Using a large bastard sword is very flavorful and cool, even if it is'nt optimal. A character who has a sub-par but unique build can still be enjoyable to play (I have played a few such characters myself).
The missing feat and slightly worse damage over time isn't going to make THAT big a difference in actual play. I'd think it'd be worth it just to have the NPCs of the world marvel at your gigantic weapon, and hear all the rumors that continually exaggerate its size.
I'm going to be playing a Titan Mauler in a Rise of the Runelords campaign. The ability to wield the giants weapons against them is pretty badass. And the other archetype abilities besides Jotungrip mesh well with a giant-slayer.
This particular character is a Shoanti barbarian with the Big Game Hunter feat and the Hunter of Legends trait. So combined with this archetype, I get +2 to hit and +4 to damage against Large or larger enemies. That would offset the -2 penalty, which is nice.
Completely mechanically optimal? Probably not. Highly flavorful with a definite badass factor? Definitely.
What I wish we had is the old 3.x Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. With this archetype, you could be dual-wielding Greatswords. Though the Two-Weapon Warrior fighter archetype eventually gets the ability to wield a 1-handed weapon as if it were light, so he'd be able to pull it off with a 2 level barbarian dip.